Being sued for cancelling an order?

Mrs_justjohn

Oh bum's ......crowqueen beat me to it....that'll teach me to eat a muffin whilst typing....it clearly slowed me down!!///LOL

George666

Crowqueen wrote: »

Interesting take, but eBay's T&Cs cannot override the law of the land.

Paypal for instance does not permit a buyer to claim a change-of-mind return back off a reluctant seller; the item must be SNAD or NR for Paypal to enforce buyer protection. Thus in that particular instance, the DSRs cannot be waived, and the buyer has to rely on the goodwill or willingness to comply with the law of the seller, which is far from ideal but sadly par for the course given some people's snotty T&Cs. Also, neither eBay nor Paypal will enforce a buyer's right to return postage through the dispute channel.

DSRs can be enforced by the small claims court, and since in some circumstances a SCC judge may order the plaintiff's costs to be paid by the defendant, it may be economical to claim for e.g. return postage or change-of-mind return if the seller is being bolshy.

eBay is only a venue, not an enclosed world where different laws apply. Some people wish it was, but it isn't. I don't think it's helpful wading into this kind of commentary without knowing the facts about what the law applies to and how to enforce it if you think it's worth the hassle to make a point.

Any consumer law can and is overridden if better consumer protection is offered by a company and laid out clearly by their terms and conditions.
The consumers rights them become the protection offered by the terms and conditions of the company and are then accountable by law as such.
In other words the consumer is then protected by the terms and conditions at point of sale and the consumer can then expect the better protection under the terms and conditions as their legal rights, and if this protection is not given they then have a legal right to take the company to court to make them abide by the trems and condiotions they stated.
The company cannot then say that the law does not give the consumer these rights so they cannot have them at a later time, the company must abide by its own terms and conditions stated at time of sale and consumer rights and laws are not taken into account they are ignored.
For example as I am a business if I stated on one of my listings that as a term and condition of the sale I would allow a customer to return an item for a full refund whatever the reason as long as they returned the item within 24 months or 2 years of the sales date I would then be bound by this.
DSRs would then no longer apply to my listing at all as they do not afford this level of protection.
I could not then at a later time say that because DSRs do not allow this I am unwilling to accept a return after 18 months as I clearly stated 24 months in my terms and conditions.

Mrs_justjohn

George666 wrote: »

Any consumer law can and is overridden if better consumer protection is offered by a company and laid out clearly by their terms and conditions.
The consumers rights them become the protection offered by the terms and conditions of the company and are then accountable by law as such.
In other words the consumer is then protected by the terms and conditions at point of sale and the consumer can then expect the better protection under the terms and conditions as their legal rights, and if this protection is not given they then have a legal right to take the company to court to make them abide by the trems and condiotions they stated.
The company cannot then say that the law does not give the consumer these rights so they cannot have them at a later time, the company must abide by its own terms and conditions stated at time of sale and consumer rights and laws are not taken into account they are ignored.
For example as I am a business if I stated on one of my listings that as a term and condition of the sale I would allow a customer to return an item for a full refund whatever the reason as long as they returned the item within 24 months or 2 years of the sales date I would then be bound by this.
DSRs would then no longer apply to my listing at all as they do not afford this level of protection.
I could not then at a later time say that because DSRs do not allow this I am unwilling to accept a return after 18 months as I clearly stated 24 months in my terms and conditions.

Yes I understand that...but where does it state in ebays terms and conditions that you have the right to change your mind and return an item for a full refund (including return P&P costs). If the seller doesn't state this in their T&C's and it is not in ebays T&C's then how is that better protection than DSR's give?

I know that DSR's are hardly ever enforced but the law is there should you wish to get a court to enforce it....It isn't there on ebay...

George666

Under the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 you have to refund an item if the buyer changes their mind within 7 days of the day on which the item was delivered.
All a buyer has to do is email you and return the item.
Ebays terms and conditions are the same except for one major difference the not as described terms.
Now the terms for returning an item for being not as described are extremly loose indeed and most of them would infact under DSRs be classed as a buyer changing their mind or not liking an item it when it arrived but under ebays terms and conditions this classes the item as or description of it to be at fault in some way.
This then gives a buyer the right to return an item 45 days after payment for a full refund.
Now before anybody says that is just paypal you can now open the same dispute with the same terms and conditions through ebays resolution center as well so no matter how a buyer has paid they have the same level of protection.
And as all sellers on ebay know there is no defence against this and a not as described dispute will always be decided in the buyers favour as long as they return the item this is because a seller always has to accept a return for this reason and have agreed to do this when they accepted ebays terms and conditions when they opened their seller account.
As all sellers on ebay have signed up for this and agreed to it the buyer never needs to invoke DSRs as the terms and conditions for selling on ebay gives them far more protection than DSRs do.
And one more way where DSR protection falls short is that this applies to all sellers on ebay not just business ones as you accept ebays terms and conditions when you open any seller account private or business so a not as described dispute due to the terms and conditions on ebay means any buyer can get a full refund 45 days after they have paid by returning an item.

Mrs_justjohn

No George - I am afraid you have lost me now....

I know that under the DSR you have to refund if a buyer changes their mind but this is not enforced on ebay...It does not form part of their T&C's . Starting an ebay or paypal dispute and stating "I bought this but now I don't want it" will not get you a refund.

If you went to a small claims court and stated that (and you met certain criteria) you would get a refund.

So how does that make ebays buyer protection better than that given by law....




I know that in reality most people do not go to court to enforce their rights under DSR....but if they did (and they met the criteria) they would win...this can not be said for a dispute sorted out within either the ebay or paypal dispute process.

Also if you were to go to court you would get all your costs paid (including return postage (as long as the seller had not excluded that in their T&C's). With ebay you don't get your return costs paid. So again how is ebay giving you more than the law would give you?

I sell on ebay and do abide by the DSR, but if I chose not to then ebay would not make me - the law would however if I was challenged!!

George666

Mrs_justjohn I have to ask this question and I am not being funny but do you actually sell on ebay?
I ask this because all sellers know that a buyer can open a not as described dispute for just about anything and as a seller we have agreed under ebays terms and conditions to always accept ebays decisions when it comes to a dispute.
Ebay always asks a buyer to return the item for a full refund so in effect as a seller on ebay business or private you have no choice at all but to accept returns and up to 45 days after payment.
And one other thing while we are on the subject of DSRs I have no obligation to pay for the return postage I quote "the supplier may make a charge, not exceeding the direct costs of recovering any goods supplied under the contract, where a term of the contract provides that the consumer must return any goods supplied if he cancels the contract under regulation 10 but the consumer does not comply with this provision or returns the goods at the expense of the supplier".
So in other words if the consumer sends an item back at his own cost I cannot apply a charge however if like some catalogs do I had supplied a returns label and the consumer used it I can charge for this so where in the DSRs does it state that as a business I have to pay return postage when there is no fault with the item.

Mrs_justjohn

George666 wrote: »

Mrs_justjohn I have to ask this question and I am not being funny but do you actually sell on ebay?

Only for the last 10 years. Gold Power Seller, Feedback 14,000+ Currently 100% on 3 of my ID.s and 99.8 on the other one. Only saying this as you seem to be doubting my knowledge of Ebays T&C's and DSR's (of which I comply to both in all my online tradings). Not interested in getting into an arguement about who sells most or whose got the best feedback.Or whose got the biggest brother:rotfl:

I ask this because all sellers know that a buyer can open a not as described dispute for just about anything and as a seller we have agreed under ebays terms and conditions to always accept ebays decisions when it comes to a dispute.

Yes am fully aware of this....but the clue is in the title...."significantly not as described" therefore the buyer is entitled to a refund if they can prove (or convince) ebay/paypal that the item was SNAD (in a your word against mine then they tend to find in favour of the buyer). They will not win a dispute by stating "the item was as described but I don't want it". However under DSR they would be entitled to a refund for exactly that reason. If a buyer simply wants a refund as they have changed their mind I will honour that, but many sellers don't and Ebay will not force those sellers to comply with DSR. A buyer would need to start a dispute and lie within it, as to how the item wasn't as described to claim a refund. I am well aware that this happens and am also aware that I agreed to go along with ebay/paypal decision were this to happen, but my point is it shouldn't need to. If Ebays T&C's were AS good as the DSR's laws then buyers wouldn't need to lie to get their legal entitlement.


Ebay always asks a buyer to return the item for a full refund so in effect as a seller on ebay business or private you have no choice at all but to accept returns and up to 45 days after payment.

Yes but only if the buyer wins the dispute, and I don't think they would if they simply stated "I no longer want this item". It may be their legal right to get a refund on that basis, but ebay wouldn't find in their favour therefore they would not get a refund. (Again I stress this isn't how I work)

And one other thing while we are on the subject of DSRs I have no obligation to pay for the return postage I quote "the supplier may make a charge, not exceeding the direct costs of recovering any goods supplied under the contract, where a term of the contract provides that the consumer must return any goods supplied if he cancels the contract under regulation 10 but the consumer does not comply with this provision or returns the goods at the expense of the supplier".
So in other words if the consumer sends an item back at his own cost I cannot apply a charge however if like some catalogs do I had supplied a returns label and the consumer used it I can charge for this so where in the DSRs does it state that as a business I have to pay return postage when there is no fault with the item.


Here: Copied from ebays help page


Returns and the Law

This section provides answers to the more commonly-asked questions relating to returns and warranties you offer to consumer (non-business) buyers, for example when you sell on eBay.
1) Do I have to provide a refund if the buyer changes their mind? - Distance Selling Regulations
Under the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 you have to refund an item if the buyer changes their mind within 7 days of the day on which the item was delivered. However, whether the Distance Selling Regulations applies depends on the type of item sold and the listing format used (see "Where do the Distance Selling Regulations apply", below).
Under the Distance Selling Regulations, buyers have a period of 7 working days after the date of delivery within which they can cancel the contract (often referred to as the "cooling off" period) and get their money back, including the original postage and packing charges. You must refund the original delivery charges. However, you are permitted to require the buyer to pay for the cost of returning the item, but only if you clearly inform the buyer of this before the contract is made.

As I have previously stated unless the seller makes it clear that they do not cover return postage costs, then the seller would be liable for those costs as well when accepting a return under the DSR. Again this is something the buyer may be entitled to by law but is never upheld by ebay as the buyer MUST pay return costs when they win a dispute (They only get their legal entitlement if the seller adheres to DSR not because it is in ebays T&C's).

Also if you look at this government produced leaflet it also tells you that the seller must pay for the return of the goods unless they told the buyer BEFORE the contract was concluded that they would be liable

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

So another example of where the DSR's offer the buyer more than they get from ebay, because ebay make the buyer pay regardless of what the seller says in their T&C's.

Mrs_justjohn

Duplicated post removed.

George666

Hi Mrs_justjohn I asked where in the DSR legislation does it say I must refund return postage not where on ebays help page.
You have just made my point exactly if you remember I did say a while ago that I would like it very much if I could just use DSRs on ebay when handling returns but due to ebays terms and conditions as a seller I am not able to do this without problems for my ebay account.
The qoute I made "the supplier may make a charge, not exceeding the direct costs of recovering any goods supplied under the contract, where a term of the contract provides that the consumer must return any goods supplied if he cancels the contract under regulation 10 but the consumer does not comply with this provision or returns the goods at the expense of the supplier" comes directly from DSR legislation not from ebay with their own twist on it.
Ebay would love it if all businesses abided by their idea of DSRs as this would mean far less complaints from buyers.
As you said before ebay do not enforce sellers refunding return postage this is because they can't as it is not part of DSR legislation.
A point to note about this is that yes on ebay I have in my returns information the fact that unless an item is proven to be faulty the buyer will pay the return costs and if an item is returned to me and it is 100% ok I wll not refund return postage costs.
And before anybody mentions feedback yes I have several negatives for not refunding postage costs but feedback does not pay the bills so in reality as my feedback is still at 99.9% a few negatives that save me money do not matter and normally disappear from my first page of feedback within a couple of hours.
About not as described disputes well all sellers know that if a buyer does not want something or in some cases has bid too much for it suddenly it is not as described and the best thing to do is accept the return and refund promptly.
Ebay always finds in favour of the buyer and there is never very much investigation put into the case, I had a claim found in the buyers favour in under ten minuets once and all the buyer had wrote on the claim was "it is not right" no other explaination just that.

themull1

If he is getting his sellers fees reimbursed from ebay that will have closed the contract and you haven't bought the item. The DSR's are only if you buy from a registered business seller and on a Buy It Now/fixed price, anything else, no.