Unlawful dismissal?

lucylucky

Zazen999 wrote: »

Basically, you had one thing to do which was to follow ACAS guidelines to the letter.

I have no truck with siding with employers or employees - I take each query as it comes; but it's blatantly obvious that informing an employee that they have the rights to have a colleague or union rep in attendance is bread and butter of management.....and if you are dismissing a member of staff it is crucial that you tick every single box; it's not hard - just follow the ACAS guidance if you don't have a disciplinary process of your own....

A little ironic that you have joined in order to gain information; one wonders how long you'll stick around to share your knowledge with the wider community?

I think the OP has an issue with the fact that although everything seems to state that an employee has the right to be accompanied, they are struggling to find something that says it is "their" responsibility to tell the employee.

Personally I think it is good buisness practice to do so and would expect it to be in any staff handbook (or electronic equivalent)

I assume the OP has such a document available to all staff?

toniskinner

SarEl wrote: »

I have no need to be grateful or otherwise for sharing my knowledge. However, I should thank you. You have demonstrated quite ably why I do not share it with employers, and I shall in future leave them to the vagaries of the internet.

I’m afraid i am having a slight issue with your approach to 'employers' as a generic term. Having spent most of my life as an 'employee' and fairly new to the 'employer' role, I have approached my responses from someone who appreciates both sides of the situation. I feel your need to label (and seemingly judge) which side someone falls on is an unfortunate testiment to the litigious them and us culture which creates (in my opinion) unnecessary mistrust (sadly, often ending in legal action) between both employees and employers. I don't think at any time my responses have been 'employer' biased and frankly, think your (what I can only describe as...) cheap shots at the employers of this world show an entirely biased and unfair perspective from your side.

I doubt, however, that this is of any interest to you as an opinion. But I must say I felt inclined to pick up on what I can only see as bullying behaviour in such an unecessary place for someone to exercise such levels of judgemental 'pigeon holing’

Uncertain

toniskinner wrote: »

- hence why I would be happy to re-do the disciplinary. But yes, the outcome would be the same and therefore, unfortunately, of little point for the employee.

Well, hopefully your employee will see this little gem on here! Prejudice like this will help their tribunal claim no end. :T

toniskinner

Zazen999 wrote: »

Basically, you had one thing to do which was to follow ACAS guidelines to the letter.

I have no truck with siding with employers or employees - I take each query as it comes; but it's blatantly obvious that informing an employee that they have the rights to have a colleague or union rep in attendance is bread and butter of management.....and if you are dismissing a member of staff it is crucial that you tick every single box; it's not hard - just follow the ACAS guidance if you don't have a disciplinary process of your own....

A little ironic that you have joined in order to gain information; one wonders how long you'll stick around to share your knowledge with the wider community?

I hope to stick around long enough to impart useful information that I have learnt to those who are struggling to understand the vagueries of employment legislation. I do know, however, when I am able to pass on this information I will not judge, belittle or pigeon hole those who are senisble enough to ask such questions in a forum of industry professionals.

Uncertain

toniskinner wrote: »

I’m afraid i am having a slight issue with your approach to 'employers' as a generic term. Having spent most of my life as an 'employee' and fairly new to the 'employer' role, I have approached my responses from someone who appreciates both sides of the situation. I feel your need to label (and seemingly judge) which side someone falls on is an unfortunate testiment to the litigious them and us culture which creates (in my opinion) unnecessary mistrust (sadly, often ending in legal action) between both employees and employers. I don't think at any time my responses have been 'employer' biased and frankly, think your (what I can only describe as...) cheap shots at the employers of this world show an entirely biased and unfair perspective from your side.

I doubt, however, that this is of any interest to you as an opinion. But I must say I felt inclined to pick up on what I can only see as bullying behaviour in such an unecessary place for someone to exercise such levels of judgemental 'pigeon holing’

Does this load of pretentious waffle translate as "I've screwed up but I'm annoyed that it has been pointed out"?

toniskinner

lucylucky wrote: »

I think the OP has an issue with the fact that although everything seems to state that an employee has the right to be accompanied, they are struggling to find something that says it is "their" responsibility to tell the employee.

Personally I think it is good buisness practice to do so and would expect it to be in any staff handbook (or electronic equivalent)

I assume the OP has such a document available to all staff?

Many thanks for your input, and yes I do feel that certain amounts of the ACAS instructions can, and will, lead to confusion amongst employers and employees alike. I have a handbook given to all staff, but (as the business expands beyond myself and one or two others)am attempting to ensure this is completely full proof to protect not only myself, but the employee, from incorrect procedure.

toniskinner

Uncertain wrote: »

Does this load of pretentious waffle translate as "I've screwed up but I'm annoyed that it has been pointed out"?

If you reviewed the earlier posts, I have indeed claimed responsibility for my oversight and am prepared for any backlash that occurs from it.

But thanks, for 'paraphrasing'

SarEl

toniskinner wrote: »

I’m afraid i am having a slight issue with your approach to 'employers' as a generic term. Having spent most of my life as an 'employee' and fairly new to the 'employer' role, I have approached my responses from someone who appreciates both sides of the situation. I feel your need to label (and seemingly judge) which side someone falls on is an unfortunate testiment to the litigious them and us culture which creates (in my opinion) unnecessary mistrust (sadly, often ending in legal action) between both employees and employers. I don't think at any time my responses have been 'employer' biased and frankly, think your (what I can only describe as...) cheap shots at the employers of this world show an entirely biased and unfair perspective from your side.

I doubt, however, that this is of any interest to you as an opinion. But I must say I felt inclined to pick up on what I can only see as bullying behaviour in such an unecessary place for someone to exercise such levels of judgemental 'pigeon holing’

I see - so you think that not offering the right to be accompanied when it is a legal requirement is being a "good employer" do you? Did you think the same when you you were an employee? And you will happily re-do the disciplinary but come to the same conclusion - despite having heard nothing that someone accompanying the employee might have to say? And I am being judgemental? Damned right I am. Employers are obliged to allow employees to be accomkpanied - quote " Workers should be informed that they have a statutory right to be accompanied by a fellow worker or trade union official if they make a reasonable request to be so accompanied. Workers should also be reminded of any rights of accompaniment they have over and above statutory rights, for instance through contractual or collective agreements" - that's the ACAS guidance there. Easy to find. Ignornace of the law is no excuse. If you are an employer it is your responsibility to conform to the law - not to check it out after the event just in case the employee has been unfairly dismissed. By you.

As anyone who has spent anything more than a few hours on these boards will know, I do not automatically take the side of either employees or employers. But I do automatically take the side of an employee who has been treated unfairly in law - and yours has. They had a right to be accompanied, and you failed to inform them of that right. You may be lucky enough to get away with it since the individual has less than 12 months employment, but that does not change the fact that you failed to inform them of their right to accompaniment when the law required you to do so.

toniskinner

SarEl wrote: »

I see - so you think that not offering the right to be accompanied when it is a legal requirement is being a "good employer" do you? Did you think the same when you you were an employee? And you will happily re-do the disciplinary but come to the same conclusion - despite having heard nothing that someone accompanying the employee might have to say? And I am being judgemental? Damned right I am. Employers are obliged to allow employees to be accomkpanied - quote " Workers should be informed that they have a statutory right to be accompanied by a fellow worker or trade union official if they make a reasonable request to be so accompanied. Workers should also be reminded of any rights of accompaniment they have over and above statutory rights, for instance through contractual or collective agreements" - that's the ACAS guidance there. Easy to find. Ignornace of the law is no excuse. If you are an employer it is your responsibility to conform to the law - not to check it out after the event just in case the employee has been unfairly dismissed. By you.

As anyone who has spent anything more than a few hours on these boards will know, I do not automatically take the side of either employees or employers. But I do automatically take the side of an employee who has been treated unfairly in law - and yours has. They had a right to be accompanied, and you failed to inform them of that right. You may be lucky enough to get away with it since the individual has less than 12 months employment, but that does not change the fact that you failed to inform them of their right to accompaniment when the law required you to do so.

I appreciate your response, but must refer back to my initial enquiry which was not so much: have I done wrong? (to which I took responsibility) but more to ask: how do I ammend this situation and also: what onus is on the employee to find out his or her rights?

Yes, this may be regarded as being a bad employer, but surely the query afterwards shows a level of interest by the employer to ensure the procedure is fair and complies with current legislation.

I feel sad that this response was answered eloquently and concisely by one poster immediately and later others who were able to stick to the point; whom I thank profousely for their assistance, and yet you have managed to keep me involved in a conversation overrun with what appear to be playground bully tactics.

Thank you to those that posted helpful and useful information.

Zazen999

toniskinner wrote: »

I hope to stick around long enough to impart useful information that I have learnt to those who are struggling to understand the vagueries of employment legislation. I do know, however, when I am able to pass on this information I will not judge, belittle or pigeon hole those who are senisble enough to ask such questions in a forum of industry professionals.

You came on here asking whether the onus was on you to inform your employee that they could be accompanied; and have been told numerous times that - yes, it was the basic right of your employee to be told that by you. You have questioned that advice and yet you still have to put the word 'useful' in italics, inferring that it was not useful advice that you were after, but some help in getting yourself out of trouble.

If you have indeed a disciplinary and grievance procedure in place, communicated properly to employees; and it follows ACAS guidance, then you should be able to read in there that the employee should be advised of their rights to be accompanied. If it does not follow ACAS guidance, then where on earth are you getting your advice from?

If it's any consolation to you - well done. I don't think I've seen such a large number of people on this board who all agree with the same point of principle. Even those usually at loggerheads on employment matters. Interesting!