Free solar panel discussion

KG-THPP

An interesting and relevant article just published by the guardian.

Not too sure if i'm allowed to post a link to it, so i shall refrain at this time.

Jon_Tiffany

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I think it's clear that the benefits of the levy either go to commercial companies set up for the purpose, or the upper middle class and above who have a spare £14k to invest, in general.

I think whatever else, it's best to accept that this subsidy is a transfer of wealth from the poorer to the richer.

I disagree.

The 'poorer' can benefit from the scheme with the free PV offers.

There is also a loan scheme planned which will open the doors for those who do have a spare £14k to invest.

digitaltoast

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

NO, you are still misleading people. Your wording still implies that it is taxpayer money that is used. It isn't, and you know that very well.

Your reasoning is also flawed. Yes, you are correct that the energy companies will pass on the cost to consumers to protect their profits. But not everyone who pays an electricity bill will be a taxpayer. There are many retired and un employed people in the UK. Also a major user of electricity in the UK is industry, so businesses will be picking up the cost as well.

And in turn will be passing the increase on. Old people don't stop heating their homes or driving or buying clothes or having insurance or saving money or paying council tax ... name a way that someone can completely opt out of being a taxpayer in the UK? How is my reasoning flawed? We are all taxpayers, we all use electriticy, we are all paying for this grotesquely inefficient waste of resources.

KG-THPP wrote: »

An interesting and relevant article just published by the guardian.

Not too sure if i'm allowed to post a link to it, so i shall refrain at this time.

Nothing wrong with links, here you go:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/aug/09/solar-photovoltaic-panels-homes

Householders tempted by a rash of new "solar for free" offers could double their financial savings by paying for the panels themselves, experts have warned.

Spurred by the new feed-in tariff scheme that pays small scale generators of green electricity, a glut of companies are offering to fit thousands of homes with solar panels for free. Under the "rent your roof" model, the companies earn the tariff worth approximately £835 a year and the homeowner benefits from an annual saving of around £110 off their electricity bill.

beedydad

Noticed some of the claims of the companies of numbers that will be installed.

If you calculate they are going to be unable to fulfil their cliams of total numbers of installs in a timely fashion.

The largest claim is by Homesun, an earlier posting states they will complate 100,000 in 3 years.

My maths says this equates to 138 installs a DAY!!!!!

My maths are 33,333 per annum

Using 48 weeks = 694 per week

5 day week = 138

An install to be fully commissioned seems to take 2 days - maybe different people.

How are they getting around to all these properties and how have they all of the MCS qualified personnel probably in the UK to do these?

They seem to need 138 x 2 qualified persons = 276

Ask them how many do they employ now?

How many MCS qualified persons have they on their books.

now compare with the MCS site to establish how many MCS qualified installers are there in the area?

It does not add up.

Now do the same with other 2 companies.

Regards

Jon_Tiffany

digitaltoast wrote: »

And in turn will be passing the increase on. Old people don't stop heating their homes or driving or buying clothes or having insurance or saving money or paying council tax ... name a way that someone can completely opt out of being a taxpayer in the UK? How is my reasoning flawed? We are all taxpayers, we all use electriticy, we are all paying for this grotesquely inefficient waste of resources.

You are now making it even worse. How much council tax will be used to fund the scheme? How much VAT on a gas bill for heating? How much insurance tax will be used? Zero.

Yes you are correct that most people pay some form of tax. Most people when refering to taxpayer money mean that which is paid to central government.

Here are some sums to show the cost to a domestic electicity bill payer.

1.9kWp system
annual generation - 1400kWh
annual generation tariff - £578.20 (cost to electric co)
export tariff at 50% - £21 (cost to electric co)
export sold by electric co at 11p - £77 (profit to electric co)
Total cost to electic co - £522.20
Plus 5% for admin - £548.31

Assume one house in every hundred has this setup.

Cost per home - £5.48 per year

But, the cost will also be shared by commericial users, lets assume they account for 50% of electricity use.

So the cost to each 'taxpayer' is £2.74 a year.

Very happy for anyone to provide input into the above calculation.

The same system will provide a 8% return if installed privately. (assumes installed cost of £9,000).

The same system would provide an annual saving of £77 on your bill if using a free PV offer.


So a 'poor' person could use the free PV offer and still be better off by around £75 per year, even after paying for those rich people to have PV.

Jon_Tiffany

Beedydad - agree 100%, there is no way that homesun will be able to complete that many installs.

My guess is that the large number they quote is more about marketing and getting a story into the papers.

beedydad

Jon

Correct - but the danger of such claims - this will all fall apart once people don't get what they think they are going to get in a short period.

There is already some whinges, maybe minor at moment on this forum from delays!

This can only get worse and then it all falls apart - oh dear am I a pessimist?

Regards

Henbest

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

How many kWh of heat will your system generate in the winter on a cloudy wet winters day at 1 degree above freezing? Thats when i really need my heating. I guess that it will produce just about.... Zero.... The same as solar PV.... What about a sunny winters day? How much then?


Where did you get the figures of 33% and 18% from?

Jon, I love it when sombody uses the words what happens in winter on a cloudy wet winters day.
As much as I live close to Bournemouth, Dorset along with a few millions as far as London, during much of this years freezing cold winter, we had an amazing number of clear blue skies while at -10c.
Unlike the over priced solar hot water only systems of £4,000-£6,000 installed where the hot water tank is just a hot water tank, mine is a vented thermal store with no coils that allow my evacuated tube heat pipe collectors to transfer solar heat direct into the 250 litre tank. The back up in winter is a gas boiler also direct heat transfer and in summer a air to water heat pump.
My 11 mixed sizes of waterless heat pipe aluminiun copper radiators have a total water content of 15 litres including the ajoining insulated copper pipes.
The radiators are also directly plumbed into the tank, so we have a common water throughout the system, with a plate heat exchanger like that of a Combi Boiler (but 4 tines the surface area) as are supply of potable hot water at mains presure.

As soon as my tank reaches 50c, the cylinder thermostat tells the pump to circulate the stores water through the heat pipes located at the bottom to each radiator.
Of course, nobody not fully understanding the workings of different collector types would know that a vacuum tube as against a flat plate box which leaks heat due to a single sheet of glass genarates far more hot water due to heat retention and the fact tubes are round like the sun and earth.
Dumping as I do all through the 6-7 months of winter (not every day raining) all the solar thermal heat genarated with 95% in summer months often reaching 85-90c in my vented thermal store is for me making the most of my 5m2 system, service free as I dont do closed loop gylcol systems, thats for the gas boiler/merchant industry to sell to the house builders but with flat plate boxes like PV.

The feed in tariff in Germany costs the government €43 billion Euro ( sun and wind publication)
The figures 33% and 18% I picked out from a very reputel publication

grahamc2003

beedydad wrote: »

How are they getting around to all these properties and how have they all of the MCS qualified personnel probably in the UK to do these?

Regards

Ah, they've thought of that. 'People' don't get MCS certification, companies do.

Once a company is certified, they can hire or subcontract to any Tom !!!!!! or Harriet, experienced or not, knowledgable or not. Not a lot of people know that.

Makes you wonder of the value of this certification - seems to me like many other issues surrounding green initiatives, it's all for show with little substance behind it.

digitaltoast

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

You are now making it even worse. How much council tax will be used to fund the scheme? How much VAT on a gas bill for heating? How much insurance tax will be used? Zero.

Yes you are correct that most people pay some form of tax. Most people when refering to taxpayer money mean that which is paid to central government.

VAT from any source goes to central government.
Council tax doesn't go directly to empty your bins, it goes to central government.
Road tax isn't for the roads. It goes to central government.
National Insurance isn't for hospitals or pensions...guess where?
The big pool of central government again.

Jon_Tiffany wrote: »

Here are some sums to show the cost to a domestic electicity bill payer.[snip]
But, the cost will also be shared by commericial users, lets assume they account for 50% of electricity use.

So the cost to each 'taxpayer' is £2.74 a year.

Very happy for anyone to provide input into the above calculation.

Where are you getting that 50% from? Do you think businesses won't pass the increase on (bearing in mind they pay a higher level of VAT)?

Again, taking it back to basics: a kilowatt hour of electricity costs between 4 and 8p to generate normally. It is sold to the end user for around 12p. And it costs 41p to buy from people who are generating it via PV. It's still sold at 12p. Where do you think the difference between the buy price of 41p and the sell price of 11p is going to come from? And if not taxpayers, who?

"The trouble with socialism is that at some point you run out of other people's money".

This is the Soviet Tractor Factory of energy.

The Guardian article is getting quite interesting comments already:

Since the tariff started on 1 April, 12.12 megawatt peak (MWp) of solar panels have been installed at 4,822 homes, up from 3.8MWp in 2007, 4.42 MWp in 2008 and 5 MWp in 2009.

12,000 KWp / 4,822 homes = roughly 2.5KWp per household

Tariff is 43.1p, compared to normal electricity at 8.39p, so at peak every panel is costing the taxpayer / bill paying public through subsidy or increased bills:

(43.1-8.39) x 2.5 = 87p per HOUR.

Or in total: £0.87 x 4822 = £4,195 per HOUR.

Let's hope we don't have too many sunny days.