Free solar panel discussion

digitaltoast

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

We do have some minimal "pumped storage" in this country.

Very minimal, and the cost of buying the electricity from it is astronomical.

Plus, here's the largest one in Europe:
http://www.fhc.co.uk/dinorwig.htm
Dinorwig is comprised of 16km of underground tunnels, deep below Elidir mountain. Its construction required 1 million tonnes of concrete, 200,000 tonnes of cement and 4,500 tonnes of steel.

Plus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity
the losses of the pumping process makes the plant a net consumer of energy overall, the system increases revenue by selling more electricity during periods of peak demand, when electricity prices are highest.

All that for a very maximum of 5 hours supply of very expensive electricity.

Can't see many more of those finding favour...

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Intelligent metering is also meant to incorporate "freezer storage" in all our homes is it not?
Coming soon "Washing Machine" instant demand and switch off?

Indeed, a friend of mine, Joe, invented it, and has an interesting display here: http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm#

But while ripple control for hot water and storage heating, and dynamic demand for fridge control will undoubtedly help a bit, it's not going to make solar any more practical. If Germany, with it's massive subsidies and huge amounts of sunshine-bathed land with gigantic solar parks is only managing 1.1% of solar, what difference is it going to make for us.

And try persuading the public that they are going to be dictated to at what time they can put some clean clothes in the wash! Fridge control is acceptable because no-one will notice. Now try and sell the concept of "you can't put washing on when there's cloud in the UK" to a stressed parent with a load of dirty clothes to wash...

grahamc2003

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

We do have some minimal "pumped storage" in this country.
Installed because we have exactly the same problem with nuclear power - you cannot turn it off so what do you do with the electricity nobody wants, at this sort of time on a summer's morning?

Intelligent metering is also meant to incorporate "freezer storage" in all our homes is it not?
Coming soon "Washing Machine" instant demand and switch off?

I'm not sure whether that was an attempted answer to Digitaltoast's question, so I'll answer - Yes, you're correct DT, the capacity has to meet the peak, solar output will be zero at the peak, therefore solar power (however much of it you have) will never cause any less conventional strations to be built. So consumers not only bear the cost of the very high capital cost of new stations, they also bear the stupidly high cost(per unit generated) of solar panels, introducing redundancy in generation capacity.

Your views on Nuclear (what do you do with the electricity no one wants) are pretty wide of the mark (and quite funny given the UK's very scary problem of a lack of electricity, not a surplus!). We generate about 18% via Nuclear, France generates 80%, and even they don't have this 'too much electricity problem because Nuclear can't be turned off') and even the last bit is incorrect! Don't try knocking other excellent generation technoiogies just because the one you have fallen over backwards for isn't as great as you thought.

The other technologies you mention (demand management, where demand is shed remotely when demand is high) are completely independent of solar, so are a red herring to this discussion.

I'm afraid it won't be good news for solar panel renters when intelligent metering comes along. The very first thing they will enable is charging a different rate for each half hour - and the charges between 5pm and 7pm will be increased (probably markedly) to discourage usage at that time, and charges around midday decreased (to encourage it). This will not affect the FIT payment, but will lower the returns on the 'energy used' element of the financial returns calcs.

As a general point, I hope people realise the difference between getting a 3% return from money in the bank and a projected 10% return (or whatever) from PV panels. They are not really easily comparable - a better comparion for PV would be made by compatrison with annuity returns.

John_Pierpoint

I completely agree with all the facts you state
Good point about France, they have taken over the S E part of Britain as it receives electricity (and potentially any fall out from a power station accident) from North France. Are there similar links allowing the dumping excess subsidised electricity on the rest of Europe? The answer is yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France
"some reactors close on weekends because there is no market for the electricity"
As you cannot turn off a nuclear power plant it is always ticking over, like a idling car engine, presumably the excess energy is being chucked into the sea.
France has belatedly realised that ground source heat pumps can be used to store night time nuclear energy in the floor slabs of well insulated buildings - another way of off loading the excess capacity. Nuclear power stations are no more flexible than the sustainable sources of electricity. It is just a shame about the legacy they are storing up for out children's children's children's........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .....................................children.
However you brushed under the carpet the construction of "pumped storage" for the nuclear industry. You completely forgot the fun nights when the nuclear power stations charged 0.00 for the electricity they were manufacturing (because they won't turn off).
http://www.businessgreen.com/business-green/news/2245328/pumped-storage-hydro-plants
I would have thought 11:00 - 15:00 on a sunny summer day, would be an ideal time to flip on everyone's fast freeze button, especially if the electricity dips in price at such a time (see thread about "I want a free experimental fridge/freezer ").

[As an Economy 7 user, my 35 year old Austrian freezer is turned on during the economy 7 period and does not get turned back on again until after lunch - if I had a super dooper high insulation A++ freezer - I could probably run it on economy 7 only - 7/7 not 24/7:D].

ckpark

Beware the huge number of companies springing up and overcharging for the installing the solar panels. A typical quote is 15-16k for a 3 kW system. Solar panels have come down in price significantly and this will likely fall further given the volume of panels that will likely now head to the UK in bulk. The cost of buying the panels, inverter and cabling/meters/switches required from a wholesaler e.g. ccl components, can be as little as 7k ex VAT for a 3kW system! However buying them with fitting from an installer attracts VAT at 5%, buying the equipment only yourself is 17.5%.
At a complete installed system cost of 15k your installer is effectively charging you up to 7k ex VAT for 2 days work max. Your target price for a good quality 3kW system should be 10-11k inc VAT at 5% (on fitting and equipment). Don't get fleeced, walk away, there are loads of installers on the MCS database now to choose from, tell them you know how much the kit actually costs and insist on an itemised estimate. Despite the impression they try to give, installing solar panels is not that challenging for an qualified electrician and roofer working together.

Shopping around and driving a hard bargain means you can get your payback time down to as little as 8 yrs on the Feed-in Tariff.

50Twuncle

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Good point about France, they have taken over the S E part of Britain as it receives electricity (and potentially any fall out from a power station accident) from North France. Are there similar links allowing the dumping excess subsidised electricity on the rest of Europe? The answer is yes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France
"some reactors close on weekends because there is no market for the electricity"
As you cannot turn off a nuclear power plant it is always ticking over, like a idling car engine, presumably the excess energy is being chucked into the sea.
France has belatedly realised that ground source heat pumps can be used to store night time nuclear energy in the floor slabs of well insulated buildings - another way of off loading the excess capacity. Nuclear power stations are no more flexible than the sustainable sources of electricity. It is just a shame about the legacy they are storing up for out children's children's children's.................................................................................................................................................................................children.
However you brushed under the carpet the construction of "pumped storage" for the nuclear industry. You completely forgot the fun nights when the nuclear power stations charged 0.00 for the electricity they were manufacturing (because they won't turn off).

Purely out of interest - how much do French consumers pay for their Electricity and (for that matter) Gas - compared to us ?

John_Pierpoint

will this do:
DOMESTIC ELECTRICITY CONSUMPTION Prices effective: November, '09 Domestic consumption - average amount in euro per one kilowatt-hour for electricity. End-user Price components: Electricity, Transmission, Services (metering & administration), Energy taxes and VAT. Consumption 30% during night-time Consumption:
3,500 kWh/year & 7,500 kWh/year
Austria € 0.1711 € 0.1470
Belgium € 0.1724 € 0.1518
Bulgaria € 0.0928 € 0.0769
Cyprus € 0.1443 € 0.1422
Czech , € 0.1164 € 0.0867
Denmark € 0.2677 € 0.2321
Estonia € 0.0909 € 0.0765
Finland € 0.1278 € 0.1068
France € 0.1383 € 0.1168
Germany € 0.2110 € 0.2037
Greece € 0.0893 € 0.0887
Hungary € 0.1483 € 0.1458
Ireland € 0.1839 € 0.1535
Italy € 0.2599 € 0.2245
Latvia € 0.0880 € 0.0771
Lithuania € 0.0915 € 0.0792
Luxembourg € 0.1890 € 0.1823
Malta € 0.1050 € 0.1198
Netherlands € 0.2413 € 0.2400
Poland € 0.1397 € 0.1270
Portugal € 0.1725 € 0.1433
Romania € 0.1298 € 0.1141
Slovakia € 0.1790 € 0.1360
Slovenia € 0.1324 € 0.1132
Spain € 0.1430 € 0.1168
Sweden € 0.1947 € 0.1917
U.K. € 0.1382 € 0.1278
- End-user price, includes all taxes.

©Europe’s Energy Portal.

All a bit meaningless as most of Europe buys state electricity and the politicians will have bean messing about with the prices - just as they have been here with the FiT's.

I wonder how nuch you and I are going to pay for dismantling some of these installations designed and subsidised as bomb material factories? Anyone want to pass the hat for Bulgaria and the other Eastern Europe Chernobyl design reactors?
The sheep and lambs in the lake district are still reacting to that little escapade.

I think most of France, a country with a similar population, with over twice the area (and no Scottish Highlands) is off - grid, when it comes to gaz.

malc_b

On the subject of Economy7, if peak generation capacity is a an issue and they want us to consume off peak, then WHY, is it more expensive to have Economy7? The day time rate should be the same on normal meters or E7 but never is.

For years I rang an E7 meter and did all the water heating, tumble dryer, washing, dishwasher, etc. all in the night. Time clocks everywhere. That used to save £10-20 (about 10-20 yrs ago). These days with the daytime loading on E7 it would break even at (over) optimistic best, most realistically end up costing me more. So now I just use them at peak times when it is more convenient to me.

It's like a lot of things, companies moan about it but they still screw as much as they can out of consumers, even if they makes what they moan about worse.

grahamc2003

john - it really doesn't help in discussions such as this if you keep going back editing your posts bringing up more and more points. I don't wish to turn this into a Nuclear discussion, and your editing renders any replies kind of specious anyway. All I'd like to say here is that, imo, many peoples' views on Nuclear Generation and its effects are just so very far from the truth I often wonder how we could have possible arrived at this point. You're (very incorrect, irrational and almost paranoid imv) Nuclear views are still the most prevalent, and nothing I can say will have any effect on your, and most peoples', views. However, the last few years has seen the anti-Nuclear view diminish, and in a few years, when we suffer power cuts (almost solely as a result of those anti-Nuclear views), that view will quickly move to a very positve Nuclear view. Anyhow, That's my lot on that subject.

On the economy 7 point raised by malc-b, the pricing situation, imv, is madness. The 'greenest' thing the average person can do isn't installing windmills, solar cells, turning off the tv standby and all the other usual green measures, but simply using power away from the peak, which e7 acheives very well. Pricing should really encourage everyone to adopt e7 measures - running heating, washing machines, and anything else which could be timed, at night. This would be cheap, environmental, delay the impeding power cuts, and have only advantages (as far as I can see). But the government aren't really concerned about these efficient (and obvious even) engineering solutions - they much prefer to do what is popular and trendy even if massively costly and inefficient, rather than cheap, highly efficient ways of acheiving the stated aim (and much more). So e7 will stay expensive, and people will have 'free' (but very expensive to you and me who pay fot it) panels installed on their roof - stupid eh?

digitaltoast

grahamc2003 wrote: »

All I'd like to say here is that, imo, many peoples' views on Nuclear Generation and its effects are just so very far from the truth I often wonder how we could have possible arrived at this point.

While I agree with everything else you have said, I like to consider myself reasonably well read on this subject, albeit from a layman's point of view, and do have some sympathy with the cautious view of nuclear.

You see, things like this keep happening, and although incidents like EDFs string of cockups and Three Mile Island and Chernobyl are all different, the fact remains it's a dodgy old material.

And the pro-nuclear lobby aren't very straight with the figures either - "look how much energy you can get from a tiny pellet" - yes, via several tons of ore and yellow cake and general nasty stuff like that. And quite often I've seen per kW figures for nuclear which don't take account of the cost of decommissioning or the ongoing costs running into hundreds of years of future monitoring of sequestration sites.

And on the flip-side of that you get anti-nuclear greenies who don't really "get it" and talk about how wonderful France is with all its thousands of miles of "clean" electrified railway, while conveniently forgetting how that electricity is generated.

I know it's a bit of a holy grail, but personally I think funding should be massively increased into alternative atomic technologies like fusion.

But to start of with right now, we need better education so people can begin to understand basic physics and economics so they don't come out with some of the staggeringly moronic guff I've seen on this thread. But also so they make a connection between leaving an entire office block of lights on overnight and the increase in electricity usage.

Perry525

===========================================
I cannot see why people keep going on about nuclear generated electricity.
As I wrote earlier, in the 1980's a massive gas field was discovered under England, that fills the space between Newcastle and Devon, it continues under the North Sea to Poland.
Until recently it was not possible to get the stuff out.
Now we have the technology to get it out.
In the USA they have been developing their deep fields of gas using a system call fractional cracking, pumping hot water and chemicals into the ground to release the gas.
The result has been a massive increase in the worlds gas supply, to the point where the price of gas has halved world wide and America is now an exporter of natural gas instead of an importer.
While this innovation has been going on, British Gas has been making a fortune, at the same time as complaining that the traditional North Sea high level gas fields are running out.
Only one company is drilling for gas in this area called the Cheshire Basin, yet the French, Belgium's, Germans and Poles are all drilling like mad to take advantage.
Why is no one taking advantage of this massive field of UK natural gas that is under our feet?
All our existing coal powered stations could switch to burning gas full time, with a vast reduction in carbon emissions and at the same time lower our coal imports and help our balance of payments.