Free solar panel discussion

digitaltoast

Nang wrote: »

Un-educated, and ignorant eh?

Nang wrote: »

Its true I did not quite get to PHD level, but you would be amazed at how much I learn every day from arrogant, condescending folk on web forums.

Yes, I can see that. But it's hardly the basis for a solid argument, as you appear to be using it.

Nang wrote: »

Is every night a freezing cold winter night then? Perhaps in your world, yes.

You're living in a dreamworld.
Do you really think all those coalfired power stations would sit on standby, waiting for a nippy spell? Have you ANY idea how long it takes these things to get up to speed? Do you really believe they can go into standby when the sun pops out?

Nang wrote: »

BTW. You still have not added one constructive point on this debate. I wait in anticipation.

I've brought facts, figures, quotes from studies, links to articles by people like George Monbiot - yes, ultra greeny Monbiot thinks it's a bad idea. I have refuted propaganda, with links. Oh, and I contracted for the National Grid. Might just know a teensy weensy bit about these things.

You know, I don't actually believe anyone could actually be quite as ignorant of facts as you.

I think you're a troll.

Equaliser123

digitaltoast wrote: »

D'ya get it, Nang? Nice and slow for you, because you appear to be either wilfully ignorant or a salesman. .

Sorry mate but with little outbursts like that to someone who doesn't share your opinion, you make yourself look a prat and blow any credibility you had.

If you can't make polite, reasoned posts, why not move on to a different thread.

Doc_N

digitaltoast wrote: »

One more time:

The PV FiT WILL NOT MEAN ONE LESS COAL FIRED POWER STATION IN THE UK.

So?

Isn't the point (which you seem for some reason to be missing) that it will mean every coal-fired power station using a lot less coal, and producing much lower emissions whilst they're operating?

Nang

digitaltoast wrote: »

You know, I don't actually believe anyone could actually be quite as ignorant of facts as you.

I think you're a troll.

Like I said, I wait in anticipation....

digitaltoast

Doc_N wrote: »

So?

Isn't the point (which you seem for some reason to be missing) that it will mean every coal-fired power station using a lot less coal, and producing much lower emissions whilst they're operating?

I'm not "missing" the point, the point doesn't exist. In fact, I'd be very interested to know where you heard this myth. If it's from a salesman, I'm afraid he's breaking the law by lying to you.

Coal fired power plants take a considerable amount of time to change speed, and that is very carefully calculated so it happens rarely. They are also run at this continuous speed all the time, because this is how they are operating at their best rate of efficiency. If they could be run up and down in speed at a whim, then coal consumption would be considerably higher.

In other words, as "baseline" energy units, they cannot be modulated.
The rotation of the turbine must also match grid frequency, another reason they can't be "spun down" when the sun shines.

Nang

digitaltoast wrote: »

I'm not "missing" the point, the point doesn't exist. In fact, I'd be very interested to know where you heard this myth. If it's from a salesman, I'm afraid he's breaking the law by lying to you.

Coal fired power plants take a considerable amount of time to change speed, and that is very carefully calculated so it happens rarely. They are also run at this continuous speed all the time, because this is how they are operating at their best rate of efficiency. If they could be run up and down in speed at a whim, then coal consumption would be considerably higher.

In other words, as "baseline" energy units, they cannot be modulated.
The rotation of the turbine must also match grid frequency, another reason they can't be "spun down" when the sun shines.

This info is more useful.

So what do they do for an expected peak demand? (Always a possibility that half of the folk in a area will put their kettles on at the same time).

digitaltoast

Nang wrote: »

This info is more useful.

So what do they do for an expected peak demand? (Always a possibility that half of the folk in a area will put their kettles on at the same time).

It's called a "TV pickup". Basically, the balancing manager "buys in" electricity as needed to smooth shocks, and it's incredibly expensive especially if unexpected and not planned for in the trading process. Dinorwig hydro can be generating in 12 seconds, but the per MW wholesale cost is astronomical. Gas turbine generators can also kick in quickly. He can also buy in power from France via the HVDC cable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel None of these are suitable for balancing cloud cover.

See:
http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/49736B61-06E4-4241-AF0B-8E7D84053AF7/1227/Nick_Easton_A_day_In_The_Life_Of_.pdf

http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/electricity/

Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6981356.stm might be of interest.

Nang

digitaltoast wrote: »

It's called a "TV pickup". Basically, the balancing manager "buys in" electricity as needed to smooth shocks, and it's incredibly expensive especially if unexpected and not planned for in the trading process. Dinorwig hydro can be generating in 12 seconds, but the per MW wholesale cost is astronomical. Gas turbine generators can also kick in quickly. He can also buy in power from France via the HVDC cable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel None of these are suitable for balancing cloud cover.

See:
http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/49736B61-06E4-4241-AF0B-8E7D84053AF7/1227/Nick_Easton_A_day_In_The_Life_Of_.pdf

http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/electricity/

Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6981356.stm might be of interest.

So what if this peak occurred when all of ASG's 2000 PVs were soaking in the sunshine.

Would solar power not then be used instead of the power companies generating it, quickly or buying it in from elsewhere?

digitaltoast

Nang wrote: »

So what if this peak occurred when all of ASG's 2000 PVs were soaking in the sunshine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

TV pickups occur during breaks in popular television programmes and are a surge in demand caused by the boiling of kettles and the opening of fridge doors by millions of people.
There are typically several large peaks in energy use caused by TV pickup during each day dependant on TV schedules, the day of the week and weather. The largest pickup of the day is usually at 21.00 when several popular TV programmes end or go to commercial breaks.[3] The most popular programmes, hence those giving the greatest pickup are soaps, sporting events, reality tv and royal weddings.[3][1] A typical TV pickup imposes an extra demand of 2-400 megawatts with larger soap storylines bringing around 7-800 MW.[1]

Can you tell me how much sunshine those PVs are "soaking up" and many watts you expect them to be producing at 21:00?

Nang

digitaltoast wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup


Can you tell me how much sunshine those PVs are "soaking up" and many watts you expect them to be producing at 21:00?

OK but your quote says typically, not always. Which suggests there will be some times during the day when this occurs. Last June it was sunny when folk were watching the England world cup game for instance. What would happen if people made more cups of tea than they expected?

Surely excess supply on the grid would have been an advantage.