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** Fraudulent disputed withdrawal * need advice now
puddy
Posts: 12,709 Forumite
We are currently disputing fraudulent activity on a bank account
last year my partner and I took out a joint mortgage. As part of the mortgage conditions, they give you a current account. We were given the impression there was no choice about this, I still am unclear if we could have refused it or not, but we didnt, we just dismissed that part of it.
Both of us hold and held individual curent accounts with a different bank to the mortgage provider.
We were not living together at the time of the application and during the application process the bank's service was incredibly incompetent and my partner complained. They wrote to him in response at his address. All his proof of income and identity was at the address he lived at. He has never lived at my previous address and never claimed to.
A year on and we suddenly recieve a bank statement for the current account attached to the mortgage showing 2 withdrawals on it totalling £250. The account has never been used. I think to myself this must be a technical error and phone up to complain. I am told that this is no error so I ask to be put through to the fraud department.
I am told that they will send a form to me to dispute this. They tell me that its my card which the money has been drawn out on.
The form arrives in my name only with my card number at the top of it. The questions ask about me receiving it, keeping it, wheres the pin, who knows the pin etc etc. I answer the questions, yes I received the card, the pin was shredded, the card has been in my purse all the time, its never been used (I dont even know the pin and god knows why I kept the card, its now been shredded).
The reply comes back after that to say that they conclude I have been negligent and that someone somewhere must have had access to the pin and card and used it, my fault.
We appeal against this, denying all knowledge of who would have done this and specify again, this was not an account we even asked for or wanted, it has never been used, the pin for the card was shredded on receipt, even I dont know the pin so how would anyone else. We asked for the address of the cashpoints concerned as the statement simply says 'High Street' and wanted CCTV of the withdrawals. We also wanted to know where and when the cards were posted and whether there had been any others sent out since the original one I received.
Reply comes back to the appeal. Now it gets interesting. Firstly they acknowledge that we seem to have been informed that the disputed withdrawals were made with my card, in fact they were made with my partners card, the bank says sorry for this oversight.
She goes on to say that based on my answers to the dispute form where I say that I received the card, she concludes that the evidence shows that the 'cards were received' and therefore we must have been negligent with 'them'. She gives a date on which the 'cards' were sent and the 'pin's were sent. She confirms that BOTH cards and their pins were sent to MY address.
The date that these items were sent was AFTER I moved out of my property. I dont have to confirm this date with them as they were the mortgage providers for my own single mortgage which was clearly redeemed that day. I know now, that I received my card because I had a redirection in place for me (and me only) however, my partner's card had clearly been delivered to my old address and simply left there as I nor him lived there and a redirection only works on name basis, his post wouldnt have been redirected to me.
We didnt miss or query his card not arriving as it wasnt in our thought process, it wasnt an account we wanted or had requested. We didnt request cards and pins for it, so the absence of a card would not have been noted.
Now the dispute form that I completed, was done in my name, concerning my card, as thats what we were told initially, that the withdrawals were done with my card. Now that we know that it was with his card, it all makes sense. He never received his card or pin, but he was not asked this within the dispute process.
So, our complaint went back pretty sharpish, to point out the above but also to query the serious breach of security in sending financial documents and cards to someone elses address. We gave them 14 days to reply, time is up now and no reply.
What would you be asking of them (apart from to reinburse the money back into our account)?
They have said they cant even close the current account we dont want and invite us to request an interview with a branch manager somewhere. When I phoned up about the amounts in the first place and then realised it was fraudulent, I asked for the cards to be cancelled, 2 days later they sent us more cards, I DONT WANT THE CARDS!!! they've been shredded now too.
last year my partner and I took out a joint mortgage. As part of the mortgage conditions, they give you a current account. We were given the impression there was no choice about this, I still am unclear if we could have refused it or not, but we didnt, we just dismissed that part of it.
Both of us hold and held individual curent accounts with a different bank to the mortgage provider.
We were not living together at the time of the application and during the application process the bank's service was incredibly incompetent and my partner complained. They wrote to him in response at his address. All his proof of income and identity was at the address he lived at. He has never lived at my previous address and never claimed to.
A year on and we suddenly recieve a bank statement for the current account attached to the mortgage showing 2 withdrawals on it totalling £250. The account has never been used. I think to myself this must be a technical error and phone up to complain. I am told that this is no error so I ask to be put through to the fraud department.
I am told that they will send a form to me to dispute this. They tell me that its my card which the money has been drawn out on.
The form arrives in my name only with my card number at the top of it. The questions ask about me receiving it, keeping it, wheres the pin, who knows the pin etc etc. I answer the questions, yes I received the card, the pin was shredded, the card has been in my purse all the time, its never been used (I dont even know the pin and god knows why I kept the card, its now been shredded).
The reply comes back after that to say that they conclude I have been negligent and that someone somewhere must have had access to the pin and card and used it, my fault.
We appeal against this, denying all knowledge of who would have done this and specify again, this was not an account we even asked for or wanted, it has never been used, the pin for the card was shredded on receipt, even I dont know the pin so how would anyone else. We asked for the address of the cashpoints concerned as the statement simply says 'High Street' and wanted CCTV of the withdrawals. We also wanted to know where and when the cards were posted and whether there had been any others sent out since the original one I received.
Reply comes back to the appeal. Now it gets interesting. Firstly they acknowledge that we seem to have been informed that the disputed withdrawals were made with my card, in fact they were made with my partners card, the bank says sorry for this oversight.
She goes on to say that based on my answers to the dispute form where I say that I received the card, she concludes that the evidence shows that the 'cards were received' and therefore we must have been negligent with 'them'. She gives a date on which the 'cards' were sent and the 'pin's were sent. She confirms that BOTH cards and their pins were sent to MY address.
The date that these items were sent was AFTER I moved out of my property. I dont have to confirm this date with them as they were the mortgage providers for my own single mortgage which was clearly redeemed that day. I know now, that I received my card because I had a redirection in place for me (and me only) however, my partner's card had clearly been delivered to my old address and simply left there as I nor him lived there and a redirection only works on name basis, his post wouldnt have been redirected to me.
We didnt miss or query his card not arriving as it wasnt in our thought process, it wasnt an account we wanted or had requested. We didnt request cards and pins for it, so the absence of a card would not have been noted.
Now the dispute form that I completed, was done in my name, concerning my card, as thats what we were told initially, that the withdrawals were done with my card. Now that we know that it was with his card, it all makes sense. He never received his card or pin, but he was not asked this within the dispute process.
So, our complaint went back pretty sharpish, to point out the above but also to query the serious breach of security in sending financial documents and cards to someone elses address. We gave them 14 days to reply, time is up now and no reply.
What would you be asking of them (apart from to reinburse the money back into our account)?
They have said they cant even close the current account we dont want and invite us to request an interview with a branch manager somewhere. When I phoned up about the amounts in the first place and then realised it was fraudulent, I asked for the cards to be cancelled, 2 days later they sent us more cards, I DONT WANT THE CARDS!!! they've been shredded now too.
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Comments
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Okay, in summary:
you opened an account, moved house and the bank sent the cards to the old address and the cards then got used fraudulently?
Did you advise the current account part of the bank's operation of your change of address, or did you just assume they would know your new address because of the mortgage?
If you assumed, I'm not sure the bank should do any more than reimburse the fraud.0 -
What have you lost out on financially? Other than the fraud on your account, the complaints, I can't see anything else.
You should base your compensation on this. So you want the fraud money back fine. You should ask for £10 a phonecall, (proof will be better), and £25 a visit to branch (proof again). £50 goodwill gesture at most.
The fact the bank sent the stuff to another person is negligible as even if someone else opened it, it is against the law to act upon the information unlawfully (or so I've been told on this forum!).0 -
opinions4u wrote: »Okay, in summary:
you opened an account, moved house and the bank sent the cards to the old address and the cards then got used fraudulently?
Did you advise the current account part of the bank's operation of your change of address, or did you just assume they would know your new address because of the mortgage?
If you assumed, I'm not sure the bank should do any more than reimburse the fraud.
nearly
we were given an account that we neither requested nor wanted
the date of redemption of my mortgage was 22nd may. at that point, i no longer had a mortgage with the bank but a mortgage application was in process for a property that we were buying in june with the same provider. my address with the mortgage application process was obviously changed because i had moved out of my address. my partners was not changed because he did not move out of his own address until our mortgage began and we bought our house in june. the bank sent my card and pin to my old address, this was redirected to my temporary accommodation. my partners cards were also sent to my address. they should have been sent to his own address.
you're right that i did not inform the 'current account section' of my new (temporary address), 2 reasons for that. as i say, when i moved the account had not been opened it would seem. the morgage was due to start in june, it would appear now from their documents that the account was opened on the 28th may and the cards and pins sent around about this time.
but the main reason was, yes, i would have expected any associated stuff with the mortgage to begin when the mortgage started, AND for any associated stuff with a mortgage to use the address either of the new mortgage or the addresses for me and my partner on the application.
in addition, there was no expectation on our part of cards, pins whatever, because the current account was not in our thoughts, it was simply something that was associated with the mortgage and opened alongside it. it was written in the bumpf that you get this account, these benefits or whatever, but we were not really aware of it as a separate entity and in any case were not interested in it0 -
What have you lost out on financially? Other than the fraud on your account, the complaints, I can't see anything else.
You should base your compensation on this. So you want the fraud money back fine. You should ask for £10 a phonecall, (proof will be better), and £25 a visit to branch (proof again). £50 goodwill gesture at most.
The fact the bank sent the stuff to another person is negligible as even if someone else opened it, it is against the law to act upon the information unlawfully (or so I've been told on this forum!).
no we havent lost out financially but it has caused us lots of distress. i felt that we have virtually been made out to be liars and im angry bout that.
im not sure its negligible that the bank sent cards and pins to the wrong address, i think thats a complete breach of someone's security!0 -
no we havent lost out financially but it has caused us lots of distress. i felt that we have virtually been made out to be liars and im angry bout that.
im not sure its negligible that the bank sent cards and pins to the wrong address, i think thats a complete breach of someone's security!
I understand your point, but at the same time, current account operations are normally separated from the mortgages. So, the account will have been opened at the address that you made your application. How do they know when you have moved? I think they should look to reimburse the fraud, but apart from that I think you would be lucky to get any more, as you have suffered no actual loss.Best Regards
zppp
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thats fine. we discussed whether we would ask for any financial compensation, we certainly want a 'sorry', but the feeling here is that they reinburse the withdawals only, so we'll go for that
however, you're right to say that the accounts should be opened from the address on the application. trouble is my partners wasnt, and thats our beef and the whole reason why there was activity on the account. they should have sent his stuff to his address.0 -
I sure in the application that you read carefully (don't we all) it will have said that you are applying for a current accouint, the current account would only have one address, the one stated on the application for the account. The problem is when you're doing the applications for mortgages etc it's easy for you not to notice everything. The new account might not have been in your thoughts but it was something that you'd applied for and the application was processed and the cards sent to the address on the application form (making a big assumpton that they did use the address on the application form) As I've said there would only be one address set up for the account even if it's a joint account.
Much as we might expect a current account address to change it doesn't, paying off a mortgage doesn't mean you've moved from that property. I can undestand your frustration but I'd jsut be asking for compensation for the hassle after being told it was your card not your partners.
ps I would have thought it normal for a new card to be issued when you've camcelled a card, that's what most people want so that's what they've done but they should have checked you did want replacement cards. Hope you get the fraudlent withdrawal money repaid quickly.0 -
yes, thanks
there were 2 addresses on our application form though, mine and my partners, we lived at different addresses and as i say, they had written to him throughout the process anyway about various things, not least the complaint (which was not the mortgage dept, agreed) so they cannot pretend that they thought that my address was OUR address
anyway, i hope they reply soon0 -
As far as the fraudulent withdrawals are concerned, since last November, when the FSA took over responsibility for banking regulation, the onus has been on the bank to prove that no fraud occurred or was due to your negligence, not the other way round.
They MAY have an argument that you should have told them of the move but if you were forced to take it out as a condition of accepting your mortgage application, you MAY be able to counter it by arguing that you thought it was all part and parcel of the same thing so you had no reason to suppose you needed to tell them something they already knew and it that was the case they should have told you to tell them (if you see what I mean).0 -
tell me more about how they need to prove negligence on my part, i dont understand that?
as to the second point, yes, remember that i dont have to make a point about changing my address or not changing my address at all, it was my partners card that was used and he was at his address until the mortgage was taken out on the new property. it was not him who moved, it was me. i sold my property because the new owner needed to move within her mortgage offer timescales. i moved in with my parents for a month (nightmare). i received my cards theres no dispute about that.
he was at his address all the time. his cards should have been sent to his address, they werent. he didnt receive his cards because they were sent to the wrong address.0
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