didnt know car was on finance

bigjl

I was always led to believe that there is no defense of ignorance in law.

I did try and research these innocent buyer laws but only found things relating to Ireland, could you post a link please.

Until seeing proof or a letter from this company saying exactly what their opinion is then I would assume that they are not repossesing due to the money spent on the car by the OP, going by what you have stated about the innocent buyers law there is nothing to stop me from buying a car on finance paying two or three payments, to make it a civil case rather than a criminal case, before selling it to my mate so that he can gain clear title and say he paid £X for the car.

It can't see how the case can be reffered to the Ombudsman as the OP isn't and never has been a customer of the finance company concerned, he is a victim of fraud or deception. In my opinion the finance company are within their rights, they have and always will own the goods until they get their money back.

As far as the condition of the goods being irrelevant I don't agree, the parts that the OP has invested into the car are his property and that muddys the waters.

I don't see the relevance of bringing up the photocard licence in this thread, as I will be renewing mine before it runs out and those who think I was wrong won't, as they obviously feel that having an up to date photocard is irrelevant to wether they can drive legally or not. If I give out advice on MSE then I am more than happy to follow it, can those that said you don't need to renew it honestly state that they will follow their own advice.



I have gained good title in similar and have mates that have gained good title in identical circumstances, but you didn't answer my previous question, have you gained good title in a similar of identical circumstance?

Even if these new innocent buyers laws exist, and I have no reason to doubt you, it still doesn't stop my approach to be the one that is tried and tested.

bigjl

Did some looking and found this information on a council website

Hire Purchase: Last week I bought a car from a friend and l have just found out that it’s still the subject of a hire purchase agreement – I didn’t know at the time of ‘purchase.’ The finance company is chasing me as they say that it still belongs to them – does the car belong to the finance company or me?

The Hire Purchase Act (now incorporated into the Consumer Credit Act) states that the first ‘innocent purchaser’ of the vehicle gets ‘goods title’ or ownership. By innocent purchaser, the law means someone who did not know, and who could not reasonably have been expected to know, about the outstanding HP agreement. The HP company would not be able to repossess the car from you, therefore, and should pursue your friend for breach of the Hire Purchase agreement. This applies even if you had bought the car from a trader, as you would still have been an ‘innocent purchaser.

Of course, it follows that if you had known about he HP agreement, or if you had suspicions and didn’t ask any questions, you would not be considered to be an innocent purchaser – ownership would not pass to you and the car could then be repossessed.

You should always consider carrying out checks before you buy a car. There are agencies, such as HPI, who will search their databases and let you know whether the car has an HP agreement registered against it, or whether it has been declared an insurance write-off, and also whether it has been reported stolen. Incidentally, stolen cars (in common with other stolen goods) will always remain the property of the person from whom they were stolen. If you are unfortunate enough to buy a stolen car, then the original owner will be entitled to have it back.

After looking at this then the onus would be on the OP to prove he didn't know about the finance owing, but as ignorance is no defence then surely the finance co would simply say that it is general knowledge that you should HPi a car to ensure that it isn't stolen or on HP.

Also the OP can't prove that the seller didn't tell them about the HP.

But a good reason for the finance co not to take the car are the repairs done to it by the OP, the only way that I would think the finance co would be reasonable able to reclaim the car would be if they compensated the OP for the work they had put into the car.

These innocent buyers rules are part of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, when HPi didn't exist. But now form the Hire Purchase act or something which is now part of the CCA.

Note that the OP didn't take what would normally be considered, reasonable precautions. And that this act was in force when I had my dealings with finance companies, late '90s and early naughties.

julies59

thank you all for your replies
i will write to the finance company today and make them an offer for the title.
I spoke to a solicitor and she said we can remove the items we bought as long as they are replaced as the car was a non runner it can be returned as a non runner.
The astra that we swapped it for has been sold on so we can only take the person to court and that will probably cost us more money.

vaio

julies59 wrote: »

thank you all for your replies
i will write to the finance company today and make them an offer for the title.
I spoke to a solicitor and she said we can remove the items we bought as long as they are replaced as the car was a non runner it can be returned as a non runner.
The astra that we swapped it for has been sold on so we can only take the person to court and that will probably cost us more money.

Surely writing to the finance company offering to buy the title as you suggest is accepting you don’t have good title already under the innocent buyer rule? Once they have a letter from you accepting you don’t have good title, what’s to stop them sending the repossession truck out?

As for removing all the bits you have fitted and sourcing and fitting other bits to make the car complete again, that’s got to be way more trouble and expense than the worth of it?

Ring the FOS, explain that you were an innocent purchaser so think you have good title and the finance company are refusing to remove the HPI marker which in your opinion is unfair treatment. I’m sure they will tell you whether you have a case.

julies59

i finally got a reply today from billing finance,they said they wont sell me the title of the car and stand by what they said before and that they wont release the marker until the finance is settled.
I told them i would be removing what parts i paid for and put on the car and they said that was fine.
They normally charge for collecting the car but that would be wavered.
I am going to take everything off and they can then collect the car and thats the end to it.
This has been a nightmare and i will be glad to see the back of the car.
Billing have been awkward all the way and wouldnt negotiate or be helpful,
Thanks to everyone with all your suggestions and not hpi the car has cost us dearly.

vaio

did you?.....

vaio wrote: »

.......Ring the FOS, explain that you were an innocent purchaser so think you have good title and the finance company are refusing to remove the HPI marker which in your opinion is unfair treatment. I’m sure they will tell you whether you have a case.

julies59

no i rang the trading standards and they said the fos wouldnt take my case because i wasnt the origional owner of the car and i didnt take out the finance so the only waywas to take john laird to court and that would cost me more .
I also spoke to a solicitor who deals with car finance and she said it would cost me probably £250 to take him to court and the car was swapped for £1000 and i couldnt claim anymore than that,

vaio

julies59 wrote: »

no i rang the trading standards and they said the fos wouldnt take my case because i wasnt the origional owner of the car and i didnt take out the finance so the only waywas to take john laird to court and that would cost me more .
I also spoke to a solicitor who deals with car finance and she said it would cost me probably £250 to take him to court and the car was swapped for £1000 and i couldnt claim anymore than that,

Right, so despite multiple people giving you links to the Consumer Credit Act which clearly states that innocent purchasers get good title you are going to hand the car back.

I really can’t see any reason someone would do that if they were really innocent purchasers, what’s the point of having consumer protection laws if people don’t use them.

Ahh well, best of luck with your next purchase

(for future reference, a county court claim for £1000 costs £80 and there is no requirement for you to be the credit holder to involve the FOS, the FOS website says all that’s required is a “business relationship” with the finance company which them writing to you has almost certainly created)

forgotmyname

Strip it down, Remove the wheels. When they come to collect it. Tell them that is the condition you bought the car in.

Make sure you get their details to send the logbook off yourself, Do not hand the logbook over to them.

Cash your tax back in as well.

frothey

vaio wrote: »

Right, so despite multiple people giving you links to the Consumer Credit Act which clearly states that innocent purchasers get good title you are going to hand the car back.

if it was that easy, what's to stop me selling my car to a friend for a couple of quid, I stop paying the finance company for it, and then buying it back off him when he's got the title as an "innocent purchaser"?