Union Card

koru

Not sure about the actual T&Cs, but have a look at
http://www.unioncard.co.uk/aslef/

Two cards say there's a BT fee; the middle one doesn't. I agree, though, that what matters is the T&Cs that you actually sign.

My credit agreement arrived this morning and it does not have the "except intro period" wording. (And it covers BT fees in clause 5.1, not 5.2.) I phoned Bank of Scotland and they said that there quite definitely is no BT fee during the 9 month intro period, so I'm now feeling happy. I have a note of who I talked to and the exact time, so I can refer them to the recording of the call if I do get charged a fee.

Milarky

[Apologies for long post]

Having re-read this thread I am concerned at the appearance of '3 percent (uncapped)' appearing in 5.1 of the paper term and and conditions being received. This is not what the website's T&Cs currently state nor will have at stated the time of application. What you apply for (if accepted!) is what you should then be offered. This might be a '!!!! up' rather than intentional on HBOS's part but it needs to be monitored. I can't see how they can ask you to accept what you did not apply for - as that's tantamount to misrepresnetation - otherwise known as 'fraud'.

Anyone getting the 3% letters I would suggest the following:

- Take a copy now of the terms you consider you were applying for:

- Then quote what it says at the top of this (and every) agreement:

CREDIT CARD AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

This is a copy of your Agreement for you to keep. It includes a notice about your cancellation rights which you should read.

In addition the Summary Box states:

The information contained in this table summarises key product features and is not intended to replace any terms and conditions

Then ask how they can sustitute any term less favourable than appeared in the original agreement?

My one lingering doubt is that it may say somewhere ('we can change this after you apply') but I would suspect that is not anywhere and that it becomes 'unenforcable'. But then the problem with 'agreements' is that they have to be agreed. Bottom line: No reputable company would try to introduce fees/different terms after accepting an application. In effect 'acceptance' has taken place when you get the screen saying so.

Right I've filleted theAgreement down as follows:

3.7 When we work out the APR, we do not take into account any changes to the interest rate, charges or fees. We may change these and also introduce new charges and fees which may affect the APR at any time by giving you notice under condition 12.2.

4 KEY INFORMATION
4.1 We will charge:-
£12 each time you do not make a minimum payment by the payment date.
£12 if your account balance is over your credit limit on a statement date.
£12 each time a direct debit, cheque or other item is not paid, including a cheque which you write.
£10 each time we send you a letter because your payments are not up to date.

4.2 We will charge handling fees for cash advances, balance transfers and cheques; a minimum interest charge; and a fee for transactions in foreign currency, all of which are shown in condition 5

5 Charges
5.1 We make a handling charge of 2.5% (at least £2) for cash advances**PLAT ONLY** . We may also limit the amount you can take out as a cash advance to a percentage of your overall credit limit. We will tell you what this cash limit is when you open your account. We will also tell you if the percentage changes at any time
5.2We may charge a handling fee of 2% (at least £2) for balance transfers and cheques offered at special promotional rates other than a special promotional rate you received when your account was opened.
5.3 If in any month you incur interest and this is less than 50p, we will make a charge of 50p which will be added to your account in place of the interest.
5.4 If you make transactions in a foreign currency, we will change the amount to sterling at the exchange rate used by the payment system. We will charge 2.75% of the value of each foreign-currency transaction. The sterling amount shown on your statement will include this charge. If the transaction is a cash advance we also charge the cash advance handling charge shown above
5.5 We may change any of the charges listed in condition 4.1 or this condition 5 and introduce new charges at any time by giving you notice under condition 12.2.

12.2 We can change your credit limit or cash limit under conditions 2.1 and 5.1, however we will only reduce your credit limit or cash limit if we have a good reason, for example, your circumstances change or because our assessment of the risks of lending to you changes. For any other changes, we can change this agreement, including the interest rates and charges, for any good reason. We will give you at least 30 days' notice in writing of any change to your disadvantage, other than a change to your interest rates, cash limit or credit limit. We will give you at least 7 days' notice of any change to your interest rates or any other change to these conditions that is not to your disadvantage.

Looking over this:

They can change what's in '5' to anything they like giving 30 days notice (standard clause) in accordance with 12.2
They can currently change (from 5.5) anything that's in 4.1 (the fixed charges) but, again, only giving notice required from 12.2
4.2 mentions handling fees for balance transfers - but has no provision to amend them itself.
3.7 mentions making changes to these charges (and fees also) but again only after giving notice as per 12.2

So it is clause 12.2 which confers this privilege on the issuer to introduce fees. This raises two points. If an agreement exists because an account is already open then it can only be changed after at least 30 days notice. If an agreement does not exist at the time of application (which, by definition it cannot) then the 30 days doesn't apply either. The principal fallback are the terms 'advertised' at application and the on screen acceptance at that stage (eg no fee/capped fee).

Quite commonly we are seeing card issuers bringing in changes for existing accounts at some fixed date (30 days) in the future. Knowing this, we are able to apply for such accounts on the 'old' conditions during the 30 day notice period. Because it takes time to remove all references to such 'old' conditions they tend to be honoured - even after they are on notice to be withdrawn. They can't operate 12.2 until they create an agreement and that then says (in effect) 'not for a further 30 days' All agreements work like this - they don't depend on what other accounts look like, just on your one. Now maybe Unioncard T&Cs are being changed following a notice issued under 12.2 which is why people applying now are getting these?

Nuclear Option: Cross out the references that differ from the original agreement and initial these as well as signing the bottom. OR attach the original conditons as proof OR send back you own print out of the original conditions - signed 0 instead of those sent out (again as proof) of what you applied for.

mattbass

After speaking to 2 different people on the help line about this I have been told no fee. So I have signed and returned my credit agreement. Fingers crossed.

Milarky

I have to eat a lot of humble pie now and I apologise to anyone else about this mix up:

I got the same 'new' terms and conditions today and phoned up to query. They were't budging - and neither was I - until they pointed out that it does actually say '3% fee' even online.

On the page: http://www.unioncard.co.uk/unison/p/default.asp

which you apply from it says:

The UNISON Platinum Credit Card offers all the benefits you'd expect from a Platinum Credit Card, including typical 12.9% APR (variable) with a remarkable 0% p.a. introductory interest rate for the first nine months on balance transfers and purchases, subject to a 3% balance transfer fee, subject to a 3% balance transfer fee. It also offers:

..So clear they've actually put it down twice!

Now can I remember if it said this 2 days ago? No I can't! The Google cache version:

Card Benefits

The UNISON Platinum Credit Card offers all the benefits you'd expect from a Platinum Credit Card, including typical 12.9% APR (variable) with a remarkable 0% p.a. introductory interest rate for the first nine months on balance transfers and purchases. It also offers:

is only as recent as 20th August 2006 - so that can't help here.

I can't see any way of challenging that unless it was worded differently, as above, as little as 2 days ago - somehow I doubt that.

Never mind good for purchases for nine months I suppose. Can't make up my mind whether to keep it. (Sigh! - It was all going to be soooo easy!)

charlie12

Milarky wrote:

...until they pointed out that it does actually say '3% fee' even online.

They've definitely added this in the last day or two!

I can't see any way of challenging that unless it was worded differently, as above, as little as 2 days ago - somehow I doubt that.

Never mind good for purchases for nine months I suppose. Can't make up my mind whether to keep it. (Sigh! - It was all going to be soooo easy!)

I decided to go for it. If they don't budge, I'll just close it. I've already been searched for it anyway.

koru

They must have changed the website in the last couple of days. It definitely did not say anything about BT fees on the Platinum card when I applied, and they categorically confirmed this on the phone.

Looks like it was a mistake, though, so I'm wondering if they'll give me a really low credit limit to stop me using the BT. As you say, it may have to be for purchases only.

koru

koru wrote:

My credit agreement arrived this morning and it does not have the "except intro period" wording. (And it covers BT fees in clause 5.1, not 5.2.) I phoned Bank of Scotland and they said that there quite definitely is no BT fee during the 9 month intro period, so I'm now feeling happy. I have a note of who I talked to and the exact time, so I can refer them to the recording of the call if I do get charged a fee.

Update: My card arrived this morning. When I phoned to activate, I checked if a fee had been charged on the BT I requested when I applied. There was a 3% fee. So, I quoted the above conversation and lodged a complaint.

Milarky

koru wrote:

Update: My card arrived this morning. When I phoned to activate, I checked if a fee had been charged on the BT I requested when I applied. There was a 3% fee. So, I quoted the above conversation and lodged a complaint.

Hopefully they will be quite qiuck to correct the charge in your case. In practice they will relent in a number of cases where the fees have just come in because they accept it isn't practical to apply a strict cut off date. (Had this happen myself with LTSB and HSBC in May. In one case the fee was applied and later reversed in the other case they put a note on the file to waive it as the application had been confirmed as made 'in time')

Milarky

Please see my previous post #25
Well I've just popped back to Unioncard's Unison Platinum Mastercard (See here ) and clicked on the 'Terms and conditions'. They are now the same as the printed version I received on 13th September (See condition 5.1) which nows states:

5.1 We make a handling charge of 2.5% (at least £3) for all cash advances except gambling transactions and 3% (at least £3) for balance transfers. We may also limit the amount you can take out as a cash advance to a percentage of your overall credit limit. We will tell you what this cash limit is when you open your account. We will also tell you if the percentage changes at any time.

(with the italics the showing the amended wording from the previous online version)

By coincidence, however, I also did a quick search on Google for the 'exact' phrase: The UNISON Platinum Credit Card offers all the benefits to find link to the current Google cache version. Last time I looked (see above) this cache was dated '20 August 2006' so that although it differed in taht wording from the current version I could not 'prove' what it would have said on the date that I applied - which was 11 September 2006.

Now here's the current version of that cache*. See that date? '12 September 2006' ? See what it says? Is it the same as the current version?

*cache link will die soon when site is next crawled I imagine

The UNISON Platinum Credit Card offers all the benefits you'd expect from a Platinum Credit Card, including typical 12.9% APR (variable) with a remarkable 0% p.a. introductory interest rate for the first nine months on balance transfers and purchases, subject to a 3% balance transfer fee, subject to a 3% balance transfer fee. It also offers:

No it isn't!

So when I applied I can prove that there were no references to a 3% balance transfer - in either the Terms and Conditions (which have changed since my post #25 and now) or the above 'Card Benefits' section. It's just a fluke that the cache date is one day later than I applied!

I've taken a copy including the Google header info which I shall also email to myself and keep and - if necessary email to BOS later. When my card arrives I shall now be asking for a fee free balance transfer rather than use the card for interest free purchases only.

I suggest anyone else takes a copy of this cache now - because the next time around it will probably update to BOS's amended version

koru

How do you get the cache version? Google no longer adds a link to the cache version at the bottom of the search result. Is there some setting I need to change?