Car park clock proved wrong, yet appeal rejected?

markey164

My partner parked in a car park and paid £2.00 for a 5 hour stay. The fee was actually only £1.60 but the machine didn't give change. She finished work and returned 5 hours later, to find a warden writing out a PCN. She pleaded politely saying she was only a couple of minutes late, but the warden replied "just doing me job luv" slapped the PCN on the car, and walked off.

The PCN issue time was 14:41. The ticket expiry time was 14:36, so a period of only 5 minutes. The warden wrote on the PCN that she had observed the car from 14:41 to 14:41, indicating she had observed it for zero minutes. Is she ok to write that, as that doesn't sound right to me?

I thought this was really harsh for just a few minutes. My partner also said she was sure she wasn't that late by her watch, so i went to the car park and checked the car park ticket machine's time, against the speaking clock (via my mobile - dial 123). I was amazed to find the car park machine was 2 and a half minutes slow. That means the ticket she was issued from the machine, had an expiry time that was 2 and a half minutes earlier than it should have been.

This resulted in her actually only going 2 minutes over her ticket. Couple that with the fact she paid 40p extra for the period, we felt we had just cause to appeal. I explained the above points, and also asked how often the PCN issuing machine itself is time calibrated, because if this was 2 minutes fast, then the PCN should not have been issued at all.

We got a letter back rejecting our appeal. Oddly it said they DO NOT issue PCN's the moment the ticket expires, and therefore our reasons were not valid. This made no sense based on our reasons for appeal, and even appeared to contradict itself. They stated they DIDNT issue tickets the moment they expired, yet that is pretty much exactly what they did. They also made no acknowledgement whatsoever of our proof that the car park ticket machine's time was wrong. Nor responded to my query as to how often the PCN issuing machine is time calibrated.

Are we right to feel really hard done by here? Or is it just a case of tough luck?

Worse still it was her first day in her new job, and she was only those 2 minutes late because they going through end of first day handover stuff. We even mentioned this, and they said the usual "its your responsibility to be back on time" line. Surely it's their responsibility to get their equipment time's right?

Do we have grounds to appeal further or should we just pay up?

Coblcris

This is a council PCN is it.

If so the CEO is supposed to tally the time on his HHC with the machine clock(s)

The council will refuse any initial appeal but do not let that put you off

Of course if it is from a Private Parking Company then who cares what it says.

markey164

Yes, it was council issued.

Even if they had tallied their PCN machine to the car park machine clock, it would have made their PCN machine incorrectly early as well. Worse still, if they hadn't done that, and it was fast in any way, it would be even more in our favour.

Also in the letter they sent, it says we can't appeal to the independant parking adjudicator until the "Notice to Owner" has been issued? What is that and when does that get sent, or do i have to ask for it? There's no explanation in the letter as to what any of that actually means in english?

Coupon-mad

The NTO should arrive in due course, don't chase for it though!

They have 6 months to issue the NTO.

You should be aware that almost all informal appeals are declined, even if the appeal reason is clearly strong. Councils play bluff with motorists, they just want the money. So don't let this standard first hurdle put you off!

While you are waiting, why not obtain the Parking Places Order for that car park. You don't have to say who you are or why you want it, no reference to any PCN needed. make the Council do some work! Any interested person can ask for a PPO or Traffic Order and the Council must supply it without delay (you can email for it or ask in person for a copy which they can only charge 10p for).

Then register and start a new thread on pepipoo.com fightback forums here:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Let the posters on pepipoo see all pages of the PCN and the rejection letter (just bank out personal details, leave in all dates and all small print). And let them see the Parking Places Order, also the NTO when it arrives (all pages).

Quite possibly, something will be flawed in the wording of one or other of the Council's documents they are relying on for your PCN. Very common.:D

markey164

Hmm you say they have 6 months to issue the NTO, which we need to appeal further, but what about the actual fine. The rejection letter says we have to pay that in 14 days?

Coupon-mad

I think it probably says you have 14 days to pay the discounted fine, after that it becomes the full fine again. Or you can appeal.

That's your 2 choices, you can't pay and then appeal (payment = acceptance of liability).

In fact, you can send in more informal appeals now if you want, up until they send you the NTO, and they have to consider them.

It's up to you, if you don't want to appeal it then pay it at the discounted rate.

I would never pay a Council PCN without getting to at least NTO stage personally, and maybe to the adjudicator each time. But that's 'cos I now go on pepipoo.com forums every day and see that there's an appeal in practically every PCN and other Council paperwork relating to parking appeals. I mean a successful appeal which would get most PCNs cancelled.

OK, why not post here both sides of the PCN and every page of the rejection letter (blank out the personal stuff but leave the dates and show all small print on the back). See the sticky 'how to post images':

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/1690399

NB: as a newbie you cannot post full links so just prepare the link as normal and then delete the http:// from each linked page, we can add it back in for us to see your pics.

Some of us on here may be able to spot the errors already, if there are any. If so we will tell you and then you'll know if there is likely to be more than one thing to appeal on at the formal reps stage.

Don't forget to get the Parking Places Order though, if you are playing the waiting game and planning on appealing again at NTO stage.

markey164

I'll post up the images tomorrow as need to scan them in.

One thing i don't understand here is, reading the rejection letter again it states:

"I am able to re-offer the discounted amount of £25.00 if payment is received by 30 July 2010. Please note that the discounted charge WILL NOT be available after this date and the original charge of £50.00 will apply if payment is not made in time."

"If payment is not received within 28 days of the date of service of this letter, a "Notice to Owner" will be sent to the owner/keeper of the vehicle as registered with the DVLA"

According to those statements, we don't get the NTO until AFTER the fine has risen to £50.00. Which means i can't appeal to the Adjudicator before the fine is £50.00.

If i appeal to the council again, does that mean my 14 days is extended again?

I'll ask on Pepipoo first, to make sure my response is more hardline.

I think i may also record a video as evidence of the time discrepancy before they correct it.

Coupon-mad

markey164 wrote: »

According to those statements, we don't get the NTO until AFTER the fine has risen to £50.00. Which means i can't appeal to the Adjudicator before the fine is £50.00.

If i appeal to the council again, does that mean my 14 days is extended again?

.

That's right, it's a warped system isn't it?

But if you post up all your paperwork on pepipoo and here then at least you can judge now, whether you have the makings of a sound formal appeal at NTO stage.

If you make another informal appeal now they have to consider it as it's before the NTO stage. But the discount period won't be likely to be extended again in the second rejection letter.

However, if you got that informal appeal within the first 14 days of the ticket being served, then I THINK when the NTO arrives it may offer the discount again. It should tell you the Council's procedure in this respect on the back of the PCN under 'challenges'.

Post up your pics please and don't forget about emailing the Council for the PPO while you think about it. Nothing to lose and you may as well cost them some money in giving you all the evidence.

Without sight of the PPO how can you be sure any contravention has occurred (since it's the Order that defines the lines/signs/contraventions, not the actual signs & parking machines which are secondary).