What is 'reasonable' refusal of annual leave?

smallpurplepill

Hi all

Question on annual leave (sorry I have had to keep details vague as I am asking on behalf of someone I know so can't provide too many identifying details)

I know employers can approve/refuse holiday based on business need but can they for example force all holiday to be taken at the end of the leave year (March) and none throughout the year (if this is not stated in the contract)?

Friend has been unable to take holiday during the leave year due to her section's workload (sorry I can't go into any more detail than this but will just say it is a mismatch between amount of work and people to do it) resulting in her and workmates getting to March and company "has to" (?) approve it regardless of heavy workload due to legal obligation to X days holiday. The March holiday is not because it's a business "shutdown" or whatever but rather because it's the end of the leave year and so the legal obligation is to allow the holiday.

Friend is now very tired and worn out all the time due to not getting proper rest as though it isn't a 7 day a week job there are quite a few long days and irregular hours to get the job done. Mentioned they feel like all they do is work and sleep, and don't get more than a couple of days off in between days of work so never really recover from it.

They also have some personal (living situation related) business they need to get done which they cannot due to being unable to take holiday and is now becoming a problem from a personal point of view as they can never get the same time off as partner (he does a different job at a different company with different hours!) so anything that involves "both being there" has to be put on hold for a few months as she is too tired during weekends due to all the hours to be able to do anything!

I guess the question is really about what is a 'reasonable' policy - legally or good practice wise. Can employer refuse all time off during the year and then just allow one period of holiday for it to be used up? (I tried checking the usual websites on this but did not really find an answer except that the employer can refuse individual requests within a specific timescale)

I used to be in a similar situation myself (different company) and never did find a satisfactory answer so am not sure what to advise!

I know some professions (like teaching) have specific periods holiday can be taken (school holidays) and none the rest of the year but I guess when becoming a teacher etc. you are aware of this and it's in the contract, so isn't really a comparable situation.

Thanks

SarEl

I'm afraid that the reason you can't find a satisfactory answer is because there isn't one. In the absence of a specific agreement about when holiday has to be taken, an employer can, as you say, refuse. The only test of whether this is reasonable or unreasonable is a tribunal - and that is not the way to keep your job.

The only safe way of approaching this would be by negotiation or grievance (and the latter should only be used if there is no other way).

smallpurplepill

SarEl wrote: »

I'm afraid that the reason you can't find a satisfactory answer is because there isn't one. In the absence of a specific agreement about when holiday has to be taken, an employer can, as you say, refuse. The only test of whether this is reasonable or unreasonable is a tribunal - and that is not the way to keep your job.

The only safe way of approaching this would be by negotiation or grievance (and the latter should only be used if there is no other way).

Thanks SarEl,

It's as I thought then... (not just a case of me not checking facts carefully as it normally is!)

The only suggestion I could think of was instead of requesting specific days, make a request to the boss for some suitable weeks/periods that would potentially be allowed and put it in the boss's "court". Though this may seem 'cheeky' or (conversely) being a doormat!

I don't think she has the 'fight' or willingness to go through anything like a grievance or tribunal...

SarEl

Assuming that everyone in this section has exactly the same problem - why not come up with a solution? If everyone got together and came to some sort of agreement, like nobody taking holidays at the same time, extra notice of holidays to be taken to allow for planning around it, or even making up a "rota" for the year in advance saying who will be off when... or whatever. It can't be easy if everyone goes off in March because they have to take their holidays - and sometimes management can be persuaded by a solution that they don't have to come up with!

HO87

There is usually some reference to how holidays should be applied for or what proportion of it may be taken at differing times of the year, for example, in a staff handbook or in the t&c's document.

An employee should normally give twice as much notice of their wish to take holiday as the period they wish to take so if they wanted to take two weeks off then they would normally need to give four weeks notice. In the same scenario an employer would need to give two weeks notice of refusal of that application.

Has the OP's friend actually made a written application and sought a written response?

I suggest that the OP gets their friend to contact ACAS (Advisory, Conciliation & Arbitration Service) on 08457 474747 and seek their detailed advice - especially if leave has been refused on more than one occasion (better still in writing) as there is a 3 month time limit to instigating a hearing at a tribunal were this to be necessary.

smallpurplepill

SarEl wrote: »

Assuming that everyone in this section has exactly the same problem - why not come up with a solution? If everyone got together and came to some sort of agreement, like nobody taking holidays at the same time, extra notice of holidays to be taken to allow for planning around it, or even making up a "rota" for the year in advance saying who will be off when... or whatever. It can't be easy if everyone goes off in March because they have to take their holidays - and sometimes management can be persuaded by a solution that they don't have to come up with!

Thanks - I'm afraid I may have simplified slightly in my original post so apologies for that. There is a similar rule to the one you suggested (no more than x% of people off from any section at once - which is fair enough) but in her section people have already given notice and left (maybe due to workload, I don't know!) with unfilled vacancies that look unlikely to be filled due to "the economy" etc, so that the section is already that x% "down" on recruited people.

It's always hard to get anyone to pick up for the reasons that:
- The work is quite specialised so it can't easily be filled by (say) a 'temp' or someone from another section
- Anyone who can cover already does quite long days and odd hours (similar to friend) so will not work the extra hours!

smallpurplepill

HO87 wrote: »

There is usually some reference to how holidays should be applied for or what proportion of it may be taken at differing times of the year, for example, in a staff handbook or in the t&c's document.

An employee should normally give twice as much notice of their wish to take holiday as the period they wish to take so if they wanted to take two weeks off then they would normally need to give four weeks notice. In the same scenario an employer would need to give two weeks notice of refusal of that application.

Thank you HO87,

I thought there was a similar convention (?) but wasn't sure of the details. I don't know if there is anything specific in the paperwork (I can ask her to have a look) but believe there have been issues in the past with annual leave and they have been through a few changes of 'rules' as to whether certain periods can have holiday taken etc.

HO87 wrote: »

Has the OP's friend actually made a written application and sought a written response?

I am not 100% sure but I think the system is to 'unofficially' arrange whether it is OK to take the leave (as I just elaborated on my original post "in theory" it is OK subject to X% being off, but cannot in practice be fulfilled due to people having left, without getting someone from another section to be able to cover which is proving difficult/impossible). So the system as I understand it is (theoretically) to work out that cover is available that day, then make the request once it has been agreed that no one else is off or "Nellie" is a suitable stand in.

HO87 wrote: »

I suggest that the OP gets their friend to contact ACAS (Advisory, Conciliation & Arbitration Service) on 08457 474747 and seek their detailed advice - especially if leave has been refused on more than one occasion (better still in writing) as there is a 3 month time limit to instigating a hearing at a tribunal were this to be necessary.

Thanks and I will mention this - can a 'generic' enquiry be made to ACAS or do you need to give personal details, do you know?

From your comments I suspect that it will be more difficult due to not having a "refusal" as such as it is by convention (as I understand it)

I think she is afraid to 'rock the boat' too much or cause trouble or perhaps is just too worn out!

HO87

spp - As far as ACAS are concerned your friend's approach should be personal. ACAS will deal with the matter confidentially and may, if the situation demands it and your friend agrees, take up matters on their behalf.

If, as you imply, the situation is such that the employers failure to manage recruitment into the department is such that it effectively prevents the taking of holiday then this may well amount to a failure to abide by the law hence my suggestion that your friend contacts ACAS direct.

Googlewhacker

HO87 wrote: »

spp - As far as ACAS are concerned your friend's approach should be personal. ACAS will deal with the matter confidentially and may, if the situation demands it and your friend agrees, take up matters on their behalf.

If, as you imply, the situation is such that the employers failure to manage recruitment into the department is such that it effectively prevents the taking of holiday then this may well amount to a failure to abide by the law hence my suggestion that your friend contacts ACAS direct.

Which law? As long as they take the holiday by the end of the holiday year then there is nothing wrong in that surely?

HO87

Googlewhacker wrote: »

Which law? As long as they take the holiday by the end of the holiday year then there is nothing wrong in that surely?

I draw your attention to my use of the word "may".

There is nothing wrong in an employer refusing an application for leave or otherwise controlling when holidays are taken. However, if they have also set in place the type of control mechanism the OP describes and either by design or default have allowed staffing levels to fall to such a degree that it becomes impossible to take holiday even at the end of the leave year then this may (I use the word again) leave the employer open to Tribunal proceedings.

smallpurplepill

smallpurplepill wrote: »

I don't know if there is anything specific in the paperwork (I can ask her to have a look) but believe there have been issues in the past with annual leave and they have been through a few changes of 'rules' as to whether certain periods can have holiday taken etc.

Quoting myself, I must be going mad!

The handbook/T&C just has quite a general statement that holiday will be approved or denied as the case may be based on business need etc and giving the periods which notification needs to be given in advance of (which are longer than the "twice as long as the holiday" mentioned above, I wonder if there is any significance in this)

As far as we can make out there isn't anything specific about cover etc, though as mentioned this has changed a few times 'by convention' since receiving the T&C (she has worked there quite a few years)