PCN/ Loading in Westminster

lunotar

Hello All

my first post here. I'd be really grateful for any advice about a PCN I received whilst loading on a single yellow line close to my flat in the Westminster Borough of London.
In short I was unloading heavy items of furniture to my flat. I had to leave the car unattended whilst I carried them up to the 2nd floor of the flats where I live. Not the easiest of tasks!.
The ticket was issued at 8.39 in the morning.

I sent in an appeal which was rejected because they say the CEO observed my car for 11 minutes!
Is that normal to observe a car before controlled hours start? (they start at 8.30 here so that means he was writing my number down at 8.28)

I don't think I was even parked there at that time but how can I prove otherwise. Do the CEO's have electronic proof that they are indeed observing and not just writing something down to back up the PCN?

also Westminster state on their website that they don't issue tickets in the first 3 minutes of controlled hours. They also say that residents have additional leeway to park on yellow lines if they are displaying resident permits. which I was.
I could have easily parked on a spare residents bay somewhere else in the street. The point is that I was trying to pull up as close to my house as possible to unload the wretched furniture.

I have receipts for the furniture and I am sure I could get other evidence form the shop regarding the size nature of the pieces.

I'm concerned that they've rejected a pretty reasonable (I'm bound to say!) appeal and that the same thing will happen if I pursue the argument but does anyone think I should not give in to the temptation to pay now and not run the risk of it doubling (£60 versus £120)
Its sad that the argument kind of comes second with the pressure of fine increase.

I haven't scanned the PCN because I don't think it;ll add anything to what I've said...
It reads
"vehicle was seen at 08,39 on 03/06/10 by civil enforcement officer....
who believed that the following parking contravention had been committed and that a penalty charge is therefore payable : code 01 parking in a restricted street during prescribed hours"

the appeal rejection letter said
"I can confirm that the CEO has stated in his notes that 11 minutes observation had been given before the PCN was issued"
it then rather bizzarrely adds
"the city council appreciates that loading and unloading delivering and collecting is sometimes neccessary. in order to carry out this activity s vehicle may park on a single or double yellow line etc etc"
which is what I was doing!

thanks in advance for any pearls of wisdom
all best
lawrence

Orford

Since it is Code 1, the ticket has been issued correctly, as no observation time is needed.

I sent in an appeal which was rejected because they say the CEO observed my car for 11 minutes!

What does the ticket say, from ?....to 8.39

The longer the observation time, the poorer case you have.

However personally, with receipts, delivering heavy/bulk items to the 2nd floor plus the quotes from their letter and website, I would take this all the way to adjudication (personal hearing) if necessary, on the basis that the contravention did not occur due to loading/unloading exemption and that you moved the car as soon as possible.

The chances are that they will back out just before the hearing.

lunotar

Orford wrote: »

What does the ticket say, from ?....to 8.39

It doesn't say from any time.. it just says vehicle was seen at 8.39 (time of issuing ticket.. their evidence photos are also from this time)

The observation time of 11 minutes is mentioned in the appeal rejection letter.
I just find it odd that they can start observing a car when it is legally stopped (parking restrictions for the yellow line start at 8.30)

Orford wrote: »

However personally, with receipts, delivering heavy/bulk items to the 2nd floor plus the quotes from their letter and website, I would take this all the way to adjudication (personal hearing) if necessary, on the basis that the contravention did not occur due to loading/unloading exemption and that you moved the car as soon as possible.

The chances are that they will back out just before the hearing.

thanks so much for your thoughts

Orford

What location exactly?

Just to double check, although waiting restriction starts at 8.30, what are the loading restrictions there?

Were you alone? Anyone who could give a witness statement?

lunotar

Orford wrote: »

What location exactly?

Just to double check, although waiting restriction starts at 8.30, what are the loading restrictions there?

Were you alone? Anyone who could give a witness statement?

I don't believe there are any loading restrictions there.
certainly no additional yellow marks on the pavement
just a single yellow line no obvious other signage.

I wasn't alone, no. I had help with the carrying and could easily get a witness statement to that effect.
thanks again for taking the time to help.

lunotar

Orford wrote: »

What location exactly?

the location given is just the name of the road. It doesn't say whereabouts in the road but there are photos of that I guess.

Coblcris

Pictures speak louder than words.

That was a strong hint.

This document:
http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/LOADADJ.pdf
speaks for itself.

lunotar

Coblcris wrote: »

Pictures speak louder than words.

That was a strong hint.

This document:

speaks for itself.

Thanks for adding your voice.. looks like a very interesting document.
I've got to decide tonight to let the appeal go or not (no pressure!)

Should I take your comment about pictures to mean the photo evidence they have will outweigh any argument I have?
The photos are all taken at the same time as the issuing of the ticket 8.39
I'm not disputing the fact I was stopped .. I'm just disputing that I could have carried out the unloading any more speedily.
My flat is on the 2nd floor but it is up 6 flights of stairs.

many thanks for any other thoughts!

Coupon-mad

You've misunderstood Coblcris, he's on your side. Your own scans/pics will in fact help you.

We would be able to help add points to your appeal if you can post up pictures or scans of the front & back of the PCN, the rejection letter and the bay lines & signs.

That's the pictures that would speak louder than words.

Have you got a Notice to Owner yet?

If not you still have time to put in an informal appeal but please let us help you with your appeal by letting us see pictures of your letters & lines/signs (blank out the PCN number and ID details but leave in all dates & all small print on the back).

If the forum says you can't post links yet, just delete the http:// and let us have the rest of the URL to your pictures, hosted on tinypic please as per the sticky 'how to post images'.

BTW, if you were loading you only have to convince an adjudicator of that fact and you won't be paying anything, IMHO. Westminster are shocking with unfair PCNs so please consider appealing this all the way, we can help you with advice and refer you to another forum which will help you with this.

Coblcris

I would not hesitate to take this all the way to adjudication in the full expectation that either the council withdraws at the last or if they do not run away in that fashion I would expect an easy win at adjudication.