Few H&S queries

T800

Lexxi wrote: »

But they're going to get away with it by saying I was working whilst signed off, that'd be different to health and safety wouldn't it?

Can employers visit employees unannounced to assess their activities whilst signed off? They have me on a disciplinary for serving drinks but if I'd have been walking the dog then there would have been little problem. The handbook has nothing about sickness procedure it's a seperate document, would more info be in there?

The two matters are distinct from one another

If they sack you because you raised a health and safety matter - then that is a seperate issue, which you would have a clear case against them under employment law.

At the moment, they have a reason to sack you without much risk to them as you have worked despite claiming to be unable to do so due to head injury etc.

I think employers can try to visit employees, I have heard of it done where they have went to visit the employee at their house. I dont think that there is anything to stop them.

As Googlewhacker states, the pub is a public place - unless they had forced their way in when it was locked - which is not the case as you unlocked the door.

SarEl

Lexxi wrote: »

But they're going to get away with it by saying I was working whilst signed off, that'd be different to health and safety wouldn't it?

Can employers visit employees unannounced to assess their activities whilst signed off? They have me on a disciplinary for serving drinks but if I'd have been walking the dog then there would have been little problem. The handbook has nothing about sickness procedure it's a seperate document, would more info be in there?

Lexxi - with the best will in the world, if you are going to make a claim of negligence, you really need to get your story a bit straighter. You say there would be "little problem" if you'd been walking the dog. There certainly would be a problem if you were walking the dog when, as you said in an earlier post, you cannot even walk the dog due to your injury sustained at work. And especially if a medical report says that you cannot do something and then are caught doing it. I am not trying to pick up inconsistencies in what you say - I don't need to because it's no skin off my nose, and I can take whatever anyone here says at face value. But the employer will not and neither will their solicitors or insurers. Nor would any investigator they may employ to watch you (and this has been known to happen). Simply because your doctor says something does not make it true, and they will not take the doctors opinion at face value. The doctor is basing much of his opinon on what you are saying. And people have been known to lie - so of course whatever you do in the public domain may be open to scrutiny.

You seem to be under the impression that this disciplinary and the alleged health and safety issues are separate. They are not. You are not entitled to compensation if they have breached health and safety (although the company may be fined) - compensation is based on injury to you as a result of negligence. If the level of injury sustained is not what you claim it to be, and the employer can show that this is the case, then any award would be reduced.

So you really do need to get legal advice - I can only give you a general flavour because I do not deal with these types of cases. And you need to be very very careful about what you say. I might remind you that this is a public forum and someone from the company could be reading this. It wouldn't be hard to work out who you were given what you have said. Inconsistencies in your story will be ripped to shreds in legal proceedings, and that seems to be what they are aiming to do. Even a casual remark can be held against you. So if you can't walk the dog, then you can't walk the dog - and they couldn't find you doing it because you can't do it.

I don't mean to be harsh about this - just to point out that there are pitfalls here that you don't seem to appreciate

T800

Whilst compensation depends on actual loss to the claimant, there is the potential for a claim of unfair dismisal based on reporting a health and safety issue (assuming the employer did this) and then adding on the claim of not receiving the written terms and conditions of employment (which the employer has clearly not done) which opens up the possibility of compensation for 2 weeks equivalent in wages compensation from the employer.

Working over 12 months is not required to claim unfair dissmisal on said grounds.

orfoster

Hi,

My suggestion would be to see if you have legal expenses insurance on your house, many of these policies cover for employment related issues but NOT disciplinary hearings etc. I would call and talk to them.

Failing that a trip to the CAB.

I see cases like this every day in my job and yes it seems that the employer may be able to show that the trust and confidence that they have placed in you has been broken by you working in the pub on the day in question.

Whether it was for an hour or more isn't the issue, your GP will have signed you off work based on what you have said and as mentioned it would be down to a medical expert to decide if your injuries stopped you from working but allowed you to work in a pub.

I think the response from the employer could be that you aren't a trustworthy employee, they could take action including dismissal which may not be outside of the band of reasonable responses available to the employer in this instance, obviously I don't know the exact situation.

I would seek legal advice as at the top of my thread in relation to a personal injury claim and have that assessed on the merits of success.

Professional legal advice will tell you exactly where you stand and I think it would be wise to consult them at this early stage.

Does your employer have a disciplinary procedure? You mention you are being called to a meeting this evening, what is this meeting? Did you have the right to have representation? I would have a look at the ACAS website and look at the guides on disciplinary procedures.

In future don't be afriad to postpone meetings to seek advice or representation, it may be in both parties interests to have the matter dealt with promptly but each party should be on a level footing in relation to advice on the issue.

Hope that helps.

LittleVoice

T800 wrote: »

Whilst compensation depends on actual loss to the claimant, there is the potential for a claim of unfair dismisal based on reporting a health and safety issue (assuming the employer did this) and then adding on the claim of not receiving the written terms and conditions of employment (which the employer has clearly not done) which opens up the possibility of compensation for 2 weeks equivalent in wages compensation from the employer.

Working over 12 months is not required to claim unfair dissmisal on said grounds.

Thought written particulars had been provided - it was a JD that was missing.

Lexxi

Have multi quoted again sorry - I don't have a JD just a title

SarEl wrote: »

Lexxi - with the best will in the world, if you are going to make a claim of negligence, you really need to get your story a bit straighter. You say there would be "little problem" if you'd been walking the dog. There certainly would be a problem if you were walking the dog when, as you said in an earlier post, you cannot even walk the dog due to your injury sustained at work. That was my point, sorry, I cannot walk the dog but my job is not a dog walker, if they saw me out with the dog it wouldn't be questioned, or I don't feel it would anyway And especially if a medical report says that you cannot do something and then are caught doing it. GP never asked about pub work, I never thought to mention it, I just told her about main job, as I live here and it is OH that I help out I never consider it 'work' (I know, I'm sure other people will) I am not trying to pick up inconsistencies in what you say - I don't need to because it's no skin off my nose, and I can take whatever anyone here says at face value. But the employer will not and neither will their solicitors or insurers. Nor would any investigator they may employ to watch you (and this has been known to happen). Simply because your doctor says something does not make it true, and they will not take the doctors opinion at face value. The doctor is basing much of his opinon on what you are saying. And people have been known to lie - so of course whatever you do in the public domain may be open to scrutiny. DR did examine me due to the injuries sustained.

You seem to be under the impression that this disciplinary and the alleged health and safety issues are separate. They are not. You are not entitled to compensation if they have breached health and safety (although the company may be fined) - compensation is based on injury to you as a result of negligence. If the level of injury sustained is not what you claim it to be, and the employer can show that this is the case, then any award would be reduced. around 1/16 of time on bar, probably less compared to main job

So you really do need to get legal advice - I can only give you a general flavour because I do not deal with these types of cases. And you need to be very very careful about what you say. I might remind you that this is a public forum and someone from the company could be reading this. It wouldn't be hard to work out who you were given what you have said. Inconsistencies in your story will be ripped to shreds in legal proceedings, and that seems to be what they are aiming to do. Even a casual remark can be held against you. So if you can't walk the dog, then you can't walk the dog - and they couldn't find you doing it because you can't do it. Exactly! Sorry if inconsisties appear, I am trying to not give away too much in case it is recognisable plus I don't know wether you want the big rambling story or just what I'd consider the main issues but what I'd consider important you may not

I don't mean to be harsh about this - just to point out that there are pitfalls here that you don't seem to appreciate Not considering any harshness here from you, I know it's good advice/things to consider

T800 wrote: »

and then adding on the claim of not receiving the written terms and conditions of employment

I had the statement, I just wasn't sure if there should be a JD included with it

orfoster wrote: »

Hi,

My suggestion would be to see if you have legal expenses insurance on your house, many of these policies cover for employment related issues but NOT disciplinary hearings etc. I would call and talk to them.

Failing that a trip to the CAB.

I see cases like this every day in my job and yes it seems that the employer may be able to show that the trust and confidence that they have placed in you has been broken by you working in the pub on the day in question. I hadn't thought of that but then no one, mainly employer metioned it either

Whether it was for an hour or more isn't the issue, your GP will have signed you off work based on what you have said and as mentioned it would be down to a medical expert to decide if your injuries stopped you from working but allowed you to work in a pub. I was planning on closing for that hour, I would not have opened if colleague hadn't tried getting in and not leaving when realising door was locked

I think the response from the employer could be that you aren't a trustworthy employee, they could take action including dismissal which may not be outside of the band of reasonable responses available to the employer in this instance, obviously I don't know the exact situation.

Does your employer have a disciplinary procedure? You mention you are being called to a meeting this evening, what is this meeting? Did you have the right to have representation? I would have a look at the ACAS website and look at the guides on disciplinary procedures. I don't have details of discliplinary procedure it is a seperate doc along with sickness procedure

In future don't be afriad to postpone meetings to seek advice or representation, it may be in both parties interests to have the matter dealt with promptly but each party should be on a level footing in relation to advice on the issue.
I was just told if I don't attend they will hold the meeting without me
Hope that helps.

Thanks for yor help, sorry for keep mutli quoting I have to keep taking breaks from computer

Lexxi

They dismissed me and I'm not allowed copies of the minutes, I couldn't take my own due to injuries, they kept having breaks to go and talk about me which I thought was unfair and a bit odd

T800

Lexxi wrote: »

They dismissed me and I'm not allowed copies of the minutes, I couldn't take my own due to injuries, they kept having breaks to go and talk about me which I thought was unfair and a bit odd

Im pretty sure - if you wanted copies - its possible to obtain them. Maybe under Data Protection Act.

SarEl

Lexxi wrote: »

They dismissed me and I'm not allowed copies of the minutes, I couldn't take my own due to injuries, they kept having breaks to go and talk about me which I thought was unfair and a bit odd

That is not altogether unexpected since you have less than a years employment. It isn't really relevant whether they "allow" you copies of the minutes - they can pretty much do what they like because there is nothing to hold them to procedures if you haven't the required length of service. It isn't "fair" - but the law isn't. Your only real possible avenue here is to pursue the negligence aspect, and I do have some doubts about this. The dismissal on these grounds undermines your psoition - they have proof that you were in a pub and working (no matter how short a time this happened for), and this makes you look unreliable and untrustworthy if you are also claiming you cannot work.

There is little doubt that a negligence claim would require legal support - I doubt you would be able to pursue this on your own. Especially since, if you cannot write to take notes I assume you could not do the sort of "light office work" which making a claim entails, such as typing or doing letters / paperwork etc., even if you could unravel the legal aspects.

I would suggest again that you do as has been sufggested by several people here - get legal advice.

Lexxi

I have just spoken with acas, they have suggested I appeal.
Work has admitted, in writing, that they are negligent, I've not seen the report and I'm not sure if I'm allowed?
Minutes at a meeting are usually sent arond to ensure that they are an acurate record of what happened, so others can dispute or make amendments

I'm not sure what to do about negligence, the matter was referred to health and safety executive, I read somewhere that they can get fined by them, is this right?