Few H&S queries

Lexxi

Zazen999 wrote: »

ok - first. Were you working at the pub whilst off sick at all?

There was an hour where there were no staff, there were no customers either so I locked the door two people knocked on and when I opened the door they walked in, they didn't ask if we were open, I didn't feel able to ask them to go as there were two of them and one seemed quite drunk/lairy the other one worked at my company, I thought they my want to see how I was but she sort of ignored me, I couldn't lock the door due to fire safety regs but went and sat away from the bar after serving them, I'm not sure why they insisted on coming in they must have realised the door was locked when they coldn't get through it. They were in for 20 mins then staff came on.

I've not been offered any light duties in my job, the pub job I wouldn't have to do any lifting anyway, it is a very quiet pub, takes around 1500 a week. I'd have happily done light work, I can't do anything at home I need to, I'm planning a wedding and have some craft projects that need doing but can't, I can't have driving lessons or walk the dog, cooking and cleaning are difficult too. Work sent me home when I tried to go back and told me I had to go to the docs, I just felt like they didn't want me there de to the accident being caused by them

Googlewhacker

Lexxi wrote: »

There was an hour where there were no staff, there were no customers either so I locked the door two people knocked on and when I opened the door they walked in, they didn't ask if we were open, I didn't feel able to ask them to go as there were two of them and one seemed quite drunk/lairy the other one worked at my company, I thought they my want to see how I was but she sort of ignored me, I couldn't lock the door due to fire safety regs but went and sat away from the bar after serving them, I'm not sure why they insisted on coming in they must have realised the door was locked when they coldn't get through it. They were in for 20 mins then staff came on.

I've not been offered any light duties in my job, the pub job I wouldn't have to do any lifting anyway, it is a very quiet pub, takes around 1500 a week. I'd have happily done light work, I can't do anything at home I need to, I'm planning a wedding and have some craft projects that need doing but can't, I can't have driving lessons or walk the dog, cooking and cleaning are difficult too. Work sent me home when I tried to go back and told me I had to go to the docs, I just felt like they didn't want me there de to the accident being caused by them

That isn't really what I asked, has the Dr signed you completley of sick or have they signed you fit to do light work, if it is the former then you will find it harder to defend working at the pub, if it is the latter and the company have refused to allow you to come back on light duties then you are in a stronger position

Lexxi

I think it was just signed off, she didn't really give any advise just asked what the job entails. She didn't ask about the pub work but I only cover OH to take the dog out usually and I don't get paid for it so I didn't really consider it work when she asked about duties

Googlewhacker

Lexxi wrote: »

I think it was just signed off, she didn't really give any advise just asked what the job entails. She didn't ask about the pub work but I only cover OH to take the dog out usually and I don't get paid for it so I didn't really consider it work when she asked about duties

It is not uncommon for people to be off ill from one job that works at another job but a typical scenario is someone that is off with a mental health problem from their main work who still works at a pub for example as the same stresses are not there as their main work.

However your injury is a physical one by the sounds of it so you need to prove to work that the work you did (paid or unpaid) at the pub is differant to the work you do at your main job.

I would suggest that if you can pour a drink and sit down and look after a pub then you should have got the Dr to have amended your sick note to show that you were capable of light duties (ie telephone answering etc) and then put the ball into their court to either have accepted this or to have said no and allowed you to fully recouperate.

That is only my view and maybe wrong but I would suggest calling ACAS and hopefuly some other people on here (Uncertain or SarEL) can comment on this as well.

SarEl

Lexxi wrote: »

I had an accident there whilst cleaning, it's not a duty I've seen anyone else do and to me extends beyond general housekeeping. Due to the very manual nature of the work I've been off sick, I have no sick pay. I have had no manual handling training, work admitted negligence when I had to do the accident report with them.
They have me on a disciplinary at the moment as they say I have been working in my partners pub whilst off sick, the two jobs are complete opposites of each other and the pub was closed when they are saying I was working. I have the meeting tonight, I feel that they are trying to discredit the extent of the injuries or force me to go back to work before I am able.

I have just managed to find time to catch up with this thread. It seems that this is developing into something that is very different from the original enquiry, although it is still rather spartan on details.

I think that you may be on a looser trying to argue that "general housekeeping" does not involve cleaning. So unless there was something well above and beyond, such as being up a ladder cleaning the windows, I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this argument.

If you are claiming that your injury was caused by employer negligence (and unless they admitted it was their fault in writing, I think you may struggle to get them to repeat any admission) then you really should consider consulting a specialist in such cases. It not something I ever deal with, but I do know from colleagues that the rules of evidence are quite tight, although many cases are settled out of court by insurers.

The disciplinary is of far greater concern. Zazen hits the nail on the head - were you actually working, or even helping out (without pay)? Because if you were and the employer can show that they have reasonable belief that you were, then they can legitimately question whether you are in fact sick or "swinging the lead". If you are going to undertake any other activity, such as another job or some activity which could cause (or could be claimed to cause) an existing condition to worsen, you should always get specific mention of this as a permitted acfivity on your sick / fitness note. Otherwise you leave the door wide open for an employer to claim exactly what yours is doing.

SarEl

Googlewhacker wrote: »

It is not uncommon for people to be off ill from one job that works at another job but a typical scenario is someone that is off with a mental health problem from their main work who still works at a pub for example as the same stresses are not there as their main work.

However your injury is a physical one by the sounds of it so you need to prove to work that the work you did (paid or unpaid) at the pub is differant to the work you do at your main job.

I would suggest that if you can pour a drink and sit down and look after a pub then you should have got the Dr to have amended your sick note to show that you were capable of light duties (ie telephone answering etc) and then put the ball into their court to either have accepted this or to have said no and allowed you to fully recouperate.

That is only my view and maybe wrong but I would suggest calling ACAS and hopefuly some other people on here (Uncertain or SarEL) can comment on this as well.

Sorry, the therad was growing as I typed. This is clearer now but I have to agree with GoogleWhacker. You have been seen by someone from your company "working in the pub" - that is a witness and establishes reasonable belief for the employer. I do not wish in any way you suggest that your version of events here isn't true, but it leaves gaping holes which you need to fill if this is likely to end in a court action. The pub was closed and locked - so no matter how hard they banged on the door you could have simply ignored them. Being alone, you opened the door and let two people in who were already slightly the worse for wear - which doesn't sound at all sensible! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I am sure that you realise that everything else not withstanding, letting two drunken individuals (or even sober ones!) into the pub when you were alone wasn't exactly a safe thing to do, never mind given the circumstances that you were not working there (I assume) but have now given a strong impression that you were.

I am sure that you don't need me to tell you that if you cannot do housework or walk the dog, but have been seen serving in a pub even once, this seriously undermines your claims as to the extent of your injuries. To say nothing of the fact that the employer may decide to dismiss if they can substantiate a reasonable belief that you are lying about the injuries or the sickness.

Lexxi

Sorry I've quoted all the above, I think I answered the main points, I cut a bit out to make it a little shorter, thanks

Googlewhacker wrote: »

It is not uncommon for people to be off ill from one job that works at another job but a typical scenario is someone that is off with a mental health problem from their main work who still works at a pub for example as the same stresses are not there as their main work.
the sick note says head injury nothing more, I discussed with my dr headaches, pains to shoulder,neck, arm to one side of body
However your injury is a physical one by the sounds of it so you need to prove to work that the work you did (paid or unpaid) at the pub is differant to the work you do at your main job.
the jobs are very different, as i said it's a very quiet pub and I poured 2 drinks, which I was able to do using my left arm
I would suggest that if you can pour a drink and sit down and look after a pub then you should have got the Dr to have amended your sick note to show that you were capable of light duties (ie telephone answering etc) and then put the ball into their court to either have accepted this or to have said no and allowed you to fully recouperate.
I went on NHS site which just advised that I didn't need to be signed back in, I didn't consider telling main employer as I didn't feel able to go back in there because of heavy lifting duties

.

SarEl wrote: »

I think that you may be on a looser trying to argue that "general housekeeping" does not involve cleaning. So unless there was something well above and beyond, such as being up a ladder cleaning the windows, I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this argument.
I wasn't trained, I was asked if I was trained before being given the duty, I feel it was above and beyond general housekeeping but that's my interpretation.
If you are claiming that your injury was caused by employer negligence (and unless they admitted it was their fault in writing, I think you may struggle to get them to repeat any admission) then you really should consider consulting a specialist in such cases. It not something I ever deal with, but I do know from colleagues that the rules of evidence are quite tight, although many cases are settled out of court by insurers.
They are investigating and it has been reported to health and safety executive due to the length of time off work. They have admitted negligence but only verbally, they are investigating at the moment but I don't know how long that takes

The disciplinary is of far greater concern. Zazen hits the nail on the head - were you actually working, or even helping out (without pay)? Because if you were and the employer can show that they have reasonable belief that you were, then they can legitimately question whether you are in fact sick or "swinging the lead". If you are going to undertake any other activity, such as another job or some activity which could cause (or could be claimed to cause) an existing condition to worsen, you should always get specific mention of this as a permitted acfivity on your sick / fitness note. Otherwise you leave the door wide open for an employer to claim exactly what yours is doing.
I've not been off work whilst having two jobs before, as I said I looked at nhs site and that just said I didn't need to be signed back in

SarEl wrote: »

Sorry, the therad was growing as I typed. This is clearer now but I have to agree with GoogleWhacker. You have been seen by someone from your company "working in the pub" - that is a witness and establishes reasonable belief for the employer. I do not wish in any way you suggest that your version of events here isn't true, but it leaves gaping holes which you need to fill if this is likely to end in a court action. The pub was closed and locked - so no matter how hard they banged on the door you could have simply ignored them. the pub was supposed to be open, I was scared was going to get OH in trouble. Being alone, you opened the door and let two people in who were already slightly the worse for wear - which doesn't sound at all sensible! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I am sure that you realise that everything else not withstanding, letting two drunken individuals (or even sober ones!) into the pub when you were alone wasn't exactly a safe thing to do, never mind given the circumstances that you were not working there (I assume) but have now given a strong impression that you were. The pub should have been open and it wasn't, they knocked and watied for me to open the door then walked in, I was alone and didn't feel able to aak them to leave, it was silly to let them in whilst I was alone but they came in when the door was opened, not asked if we were open. How many pubs do you go to that you have to knock on to get in then have a dog around your legs whilst trying to get in

I am sure that you don't need me to tell you that if you cannot do housework or walk the dog, but have been seen serving in a pub even once, this seriously undermines your claims as to the extent of your injuries. To say nothing of the fact that the employer may decide to dismiss if they can substantiate a reasonable belief that you are lying about the injuries or the sickness. The glass is much lighter than a hoover or brush and certainly doesn't pull the way the dog does! I have no furniture or kitchen facilities in the flat to make my own brew or soft drink I would have to go behind the bar to do this, that's not working that's me getting a drink
Would they have to have me looked at by a professional medical expert or would their non medically qualified opinion be justified?

Googlewhacker

Are you saying that you have not got a valid sick note?

Lexxi

Which bit gave you that impression? The doctor gave it me, filled in and signed and said she would sign me off till friday, I gave it to employer and they accepted it, no one has queestioned it's validity, how wold I find out if it's not valid?

Googlewhacker

I went on NHS site which just advised that I didn't need to be signed back in, I didn't consider telling main employer as I didn't feel able to go back in there because of heavy lifting duties

That bit confused me more.

I've said all I can that is useful on the situation, talk to ACAS would be my last bit and get their take on it