Rising Damp

Claire22

Hi everyone,

I am a first time buyer purchasing a lower ground floor flat built around 1900. I have had a survey done and it has found "evidence of rising damp" and advised me to seek an additional survey from a specialist contractor.

When the buyer accepted my offer, she clearly stated to the estate agent that she would not go any lower than this offer-regardless of whether any problems were found. I naively accepted this verbally over the phone as the place seems in very good condition-I had no reason to think there were any problems. However, she is very eager to sell and fast.

My questions are, would buildings insurance cover this? if not, would the maintenance fund cover it? (it is a block of 7 flats, and surely damp is something that would effect the entire building's health-and therefore the cost should be divided??)

After agreeing verbally, would it be unreasonable to now ask if she would sort the problem out before I move in? (my understanding is that damp proofing can cost thousands...)

Thanks
Claire

David_Aldred

Hi Claire,
It would be helpful to know a little bit more about the property such as how old it is, where exactly the surveyor found high damp meter readings, if there are cellars / basements, are the outside walls cavity walls and if so are they insulated / rendered, etc.

However in the first instance it is highly unlikely that the surveyor has actually proved rising dampness is present since the type of meters they commonly used i.e. electrical damp meters cannot prove such a problem. True rising dampness tends to be overstated as a problem primarily through misdiagnosis and a whole industry geared up to sell replacement damp proof courses (dpc's).

Electrical damp meters as used by surveyors only indicate areas of concern that should be further investigated. To prove rising dampness within walls requires laboratory analysis of wall samples destructively removed from the walls.

It is therefore likely that the surveyor has found high damp meter readings towards the base of the wall that could be due to all sorts of reasons, other than true rising damp although this should not be excluded as a moisture source on the basic information given to date.

Moving onto your questions the building insurance is unlikely to cover true failure of a damp proof course or lack of such, though there are exceptions to this, for example some insuance companies I have dealt with have funded resultant costs where work was undertaken to provide such a damp proof course that turned out to be negligent.

The maintenance fund is more of a grey area depending upon its terms and conditions which you and your legal advisors need to know prior to you agreeing to purchase. However often, yes if there is a structural reason for the dampness at the base of the walls they may be able to assist or completely cover (sometimes in my experience reluctantly) the costs of addressing such a fault but you need to confirm this in your particular case prior to purchase.

If the vendor does indeed offer to resolve the matter I would still tend to get somebody competant in to look at the problem on your behalf before blindly accepting an offer from the vendor to put right a problem that you as yet do not know the true cause or full extent of. If a hotch potch attempt at keeping you happy by the vendor fails to resolve the true cause of the problem you are not going to be a happy bunny once you have bought the place.

As regards who you get in to have a look at the problem you can either have a contractor look at the problem or an independent surveyor who specialises in dampness and timber problems investigate what is really going on.

Each has its pro's and cons - the contractor may be free or minimal charge which sounds attractive when you have already spent money on a mortgage survey but the contractor is there to sell treatments and these as you rightly say can cost thousands of pounds. If they misdiagnose the problem, either to install what they are selling or just because they get it wrong, or they fail to determine all of the moisture sources / problems for you to allow for in your purchase negotiations, again you are not going to be a happy bunny if the property remains damp but the dpc's are fine.

Be mindful that just like the original surveyor a contractor cannot prove rising damp with an electrical damp meter either, despite wordings often seen within their reports such as damp meter readings were indicative of rising dampness, or damp meter readings appear to suggest rising dampness.

Alternatively a survey by an independent who is not there looking for work costs a little more (anything from £100 upwards depending upon size of property and travelling costs) but will tend to be a lot more in depth looking at the property as a whole and the client may be more comfortable knowing the investigation is from somebody who is not there to sell a treatment but to simply determine the whole picture of what is truly going on which is typically more than a single cause being a culmination of factors all of which need to be addressed if the property is to dry down to a level that is perceived to be dry. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Both contractors and independents will provide costings for probelms they find for you to go back to the vendor with.

A list of both contractors and Independent Freelance / Consultant surveyors is given within the Property Care Association (PCA) website for you to contact one in your area should you so wish.

Please consider having a read of my other posts regarding dampness, rising damp, condensation and damp meters etc on the forum which may be of assistance. If you have any further questions you would like answering on these subjects please ask as that is what the forum is all about. Hope this helps, kindest regards David Aldred Independent damp and timber surveyor

27col

Nice to read that David is up to his usual high standard of reply.
OP, I am not quite sure what is your problem. If the vendor is anxious to sell, then it is she who has to be making the effort. If you withdraw your offer until she has sorted the problem, then surely you have the upper hand. Alternatively, make a lower offer, that will cover you if you do have to spend money on getting the "damp" fixed.

Dry_Rot

Hi Calre22,

For once I agree with David (on one point anyway). Visit the PCA web site and find a contractor in your area, who can look at it for you. PCA members are well qualified and in any event you don't have an obligation to accept any quote they may give you, if they think there is a problem, which needs specialist intervention. This is certainly the best initial action to go down. In my experience independents cost more and their estimates of costs are often out of date and unrealistic (present company accepted).

As for not being able to prove whether rising damp is present, with just a meter, well that is a a bit misleading. A moisture meter, in the hands of an experience and qualified specialist is a great little diagnostic assistant. Any judgment on what may be causing the problem will be made using a combination of visual clues - eyes are the best for this. The moisture meter helps too. I won't go into all a surveyor like me would look at - you'd die of boredom I'm sure.

Excluding an electronic moisture meter, on the grounds that there are more invasive and accurate methods (which there are), would be like scolding a doctor, for making a diagnosis using that rubber tube they call a stethoscope, rather than sending the coughing patient straight for a biopsy, MRI scan & CT Scan. Try taking that tube out of Doctor's cases and the NHS would grind to a halt. Rising Damp is more complicated than people think - but it is not as complicated as the human body

The vendor may dig in and refuse to budge on price, but if you get a credible report from a PCA member, she may see that in fact there is a problem - any other buyer would find the same thing, so it is worth a try. Many PCA surveyors will provide very detailed reports, with photographs and such. It may be useful to have the vendor on site when the inspection is done. That way she can see that there is no 'funny business' and may be more relaxed and obliging in helping you.

Dry Rot.

David_Aldred

The independents I know including myself are able to give realistic estimates of building costs that the purchaser can then go back to the vendor with by working closely with the contractors and product manufacturers who approve those contractors that we know and trust. This applies to both general building contractors for the majority of any structural works required or specialist contractors where applicable.

In my particular case being a qualified Quantity Surveyor and Architect in addition to building my own cottage obviously helps in these matters as well, in addition to my many years of practical experience of actually doing remedial work prior to becoming fully independent and the other independents I know are also impressively capable in this respect.

Estimates of costs when labour, profit and locality are taken into account is never an exact science and one only has to compare the quotes from three different contractors for building an extension, re-roofing a house or remedial treatment works to appreciate how wildly such costs can vary. The client really just wants costs sufficient to ensure they do not suffer a loss and this should not be difficult at all to ensure be that from a competent contractor or independent.

The comparison by the contractor Brian aka "Dry Rot" of the electrical damp meter to the doctor's stethoscope is an interesting one. Both are very useful tools in the right hands and just in the same way a doctor would not be without their stethoscope to highlight areas of concern for things that they cannot see by eye, the electrical damp meter similarly highlights areas of concern that may not readily be seen by the surveyors, contractors and clients so in this respect they are a very useful tool indeed and one I am very glad to have.

Continuing the comparison however, suppose we had a system of private doctors paid upon commission to refer patients for heart and lung transplants and they were found to be doing this with nothing more than a stethoscope for their own profit. A patient having such a procedure undertaken without further independent investigation on the back of that doctor using nothing more than the stethoscope would probably feel more than a little fed up if it was later discovered their heart and lungs were fine and they only had a cough that required a course of medicine to resolve! Negligence claims would result with any misdiagnosis that would surely follow and likely worse when paid commission for such referrals was taken into account. That is why we need to have confidence in the matter being fully investigated and all the tests as necessary undertaken without favour, to ensure we are not put at risk.

However you look at it the electrical damp meter can never confirm failure of a damp proof course or rising dampness is actually occurring. That is a great pity but equally simply a hard fact. The electrical damp meter is a very useful tool in the surveyor’s and contractor's armoury but that is all it is and just like relying solely on a stethoscope would lead to misdiagnosis, relying solely on the electrical damp meter when placing it on wall surfaces can and does sometimes result in the same, be that from a contractor or surveyor and it is a pity we do not as yet have a simple non invasive meter that will give us 100% confirmation of whether or not rising dampness is present.

In the meantime this issue should not be something to be feared by the good competent contractor or independent and indeed it can be fun trying to trace what is actually going on to give those high readings of concern, with a good deal of satisfaction to be gained from correct diagnosis and resolving the problem be that condensation issues, contaminated plaster or whatever. Kindest regards David Aldred Independent damp and timber surveyor.