Travel Agents Say MoneySaving Is Immoral!

Sheepfan

I think, by and large, people are barking up the wrong tree in having a go at travel agents in this thread. Speak to any senior manager in the business and they will tell you that their accounts are not looking particularly healthy this year - yields in the past few years have gone steadily downwards and that pattern shows no sign of changing. Virtually no-one in travel is making a lot of money

If i was starting a business tomorrow, from a purely financial perspective, there is no way it would be a travel business - I could think of a dozen businesses (from recruitment consultants to bookshops) where the profit margins are much better.

Yes, you may get a better deal from checking a few different agents, but in my experience this has far more to do with the competence of the agent than anything more suspicious - travel agents potentially have access to a 101 different boking engines and it does not take Einstein to work out that they will not be comfortable/familiar with all of them.

As mentioned earlier, the main choice people have to make is if they are happy operating without a retailer's support if things go wrong - more and more people are finding great deals by DIY packaging (good luck to them), but they cannot automatically expect the support/sympathy of their local agent in the event of things going wrong. If you bought a cd from Amazon and it was scratched, would you expect HMV to help you out - I think not. Yet several times a week we have people who haven't booked anything with us come to us with issues which have nothing to do with us - ie "I've applied for an Australian visa online, but I haven't heard back, and it costs £1.50 a minute to call them, can you call them for me!", or "why won't Ryanair accept my bus pass as travel id" etc etc....

TRAVELMAN_2

Quote ' If you bought a cd from Amazon and it was scratched, would you expect HMV to help you out - I think not.'

Get's the point accross!! We had a lot of people that have booked with us in the past wanting help with hurricane problems-they'd chosen to book directly this year & so could not help them as the contract was between them & the airline. One couple were moved out of their 5* accom to a small 2* (they'd booked directly with the Hotel) & they are STILL fighting for compensation!

ducky2004

I am an ordinary consumer and yes, we all want cheap stuffs and it is all fair good and well to haggle and not to be reaped off. However, one problem about modern consumer culture is that is all about "me me me".

The culture dictates that who cares about the farmer in Africa who is being exploited, or a factory worker in China who works in horrendous conditions, or a employee travel agent who have to make his/her own ends meet. We may care for things that we see in the press or hear ourself, but are quite happy to explot others indirectly with zero guilt simply because we don't see/hear it directly.

People's time and advice are unfortunately no free and often, an agent may know of a few tips and tricks and would enriched the visit etc (of course they are me-too agent who adds zero value).

The fact that services and advice (knoweldge) are often overlooked by consumers and executive alike (cutting cost at call center) may be one of the main reason of the poor services that we receive today.

Perhaps the way forward is to go for the financial advice route? Whether you want advice or you don't.
If you don't, then the price is x or you can go to a computer in store and fill in a form and off you go.

If you want advice, then we can do so with a charge, and perhaps half of those refundable if a package is taken out.

p.s.: Thought should quote an example as well. If Tesco sells Kellong conflake at £1 and Botos at 1.01, then no consumer should be expected to pay more for the exactly the same product. But a travel deal+advice is not really the same as a travel deal without advice etc. If a travel agent is simply asked to quote (the buyer did all the research already), then I think the consumer has the right to seek the lowest price since any advice is not adding value in this case.

Mobile operators are already distinguishing between high and low value customers when it comes to handset upgrades etc. Perhaps, travel agent needs similar classification - for those who pay fair price for fair set of services, they are good customers. For others who persistently abuses, then perhaps advice can be given at a fee?

TRAVELMAN wrote:

Agree with Pee-jay......I do feel for the staff in the High Street who are on desperately low wages (why else do banks/call centres advertise for staff in the recruitement section of the Travel Press??!) & have to make up their salaries with bonusses based on their own in house Tour Operator. THIS is where Martins technique does work, as the High Street (the Multiples not the independants) does generally just offer package hols & don't 'package-up' as specialist independants do.

As I've said before-packaging is the way to go in my opinion in most cases.

One VERY interesting point-I've not seen many posts SHOWING what they've saved & giving examples (may be I'm looking in the wrong place on the Forum?). us Brits as a nation don't feel comfortable with haggling (don't know why-interesting cultural thing??!)-could this be why not many posts on success stories? As an Agent-i'd be very interested to see what the High Street will give off!

An interesting aside here....one of my regulars-a very astute Yorkshire Lady-ALWAYS checks prices in Huddersfield Town centre with all 5 or so Agents-playing one off against the other (& then seeing what I can do!!!). This was yesterday....THREE of them point blank said 'no-we don't haggle/discount', 2 did, but when she went back to the 1st one with the 2nd Agents price they said-'sorry-we've people waiting who need advice, we haven't got time to play games-this is our price-do you want it??!'.

She asked them to double check the price-HOLIDAY HAD GONE. So.....wasted time for customer...Agents NOT playing the game-holiday lost! I got her fixed up (School feb Half-Term) in the end-but the apartment was not 100% in the location she wanted.

Surely a lesson there....???!!! Not saying don't do it but be aware of the pitfalls!

Chris

TRAVELMAN_2

Agreed! Everyone want's a good deal...but i take on board your comments.

I've had NINE people this year who've 'played the game' for Easter....by the time 6 of them had haggled away for England the deal was GONE-all for the sake of...in most cases-£5 per person.

There has to be a balance.

I had a MSE'R (& this is no disrespect to other MSE'R's...MOST are normal!) who picked my brains for hours about crete (I lived there) & then proceded to say 'x company has quoted £100 less'. Apart from being pretty P****d off at being taken for a mug (I'd discounted heavily, the othe Agent was making £20 for 5 pax on a £1000 holiday!) I felt a huge pang of relief when said customer called ME as the accomodation supplier had been 'switched' to a less reliable (but cheaper) provider so NO ROOM AT THE INN. I couldn't help as it was not my booking.....to a degree you get what you pay for!

Shazzie_bompa

MSE_Martin wrote:

Travel Agents Say MoneySaving is Immoral

Two weeks ago I presented a Tonight With Trevor MacDonald programme showing people techniques to haggle down the cost of a holiday. In essense it stems from the fact the same holidays are available at different prices at different travel agents, so you can knock down those prices.

Accoding to the Travel Agents' trade publication Travel Trades Gazette there's been uproar, and i've been accused of being immoral.

The technique I described mostly followed the three articles that follow

Barter for a Bargain Beach Holiday
Cheapest Way to Spend Overseas
Cheapest Travel Insurance

Yet the Travel Agents were more than upset about this. The Travel Trades Gazette has kindly allowed me to let you see these PDF files

TTG Main Article
TTG Letters Page

(note these are big files, so may take more than a minute to download on narrowband)

I absolutely and wholeheatedly disagree. I think this cuts to the route of what MoneySaving and Consumer Revenge is all about. The following is my reply (personally, not representing Tonight with TM) which will be published in the magazine next week.

Please do have your say afterwards and vote in the poll.

________________________________________________________

People haggling down their holiday costs? Wonderful news!

My philosophy is we live in an adversarial consumer society. A company’s job is to make money, nowt wrong with that. Yet a consumer’s job should be to maximise their cash too, nowt wrong with that either.

I’m purely, un-apologetically a consumer lobbyist. Billions are spent on marketing and advertising to help businesses profit, while consumers are sub-served, fending for themselves.

Remember the sales training you were given to close a deal. Why shouldn’t consumers have buying training? Let me reiterate, I don’t blame companies for trying to make money and flogging products hard, so why am I immoral for showing consumers how to do the same?

This response wasn’t unexpected. Over the years I’ve had many people support what I do until their industry is mentioned. It happened with mortgage brokers, banks, credit card companies and now travel agents.

I've had many past emails from travel agents complimenting the consumer-revenge bits of my broadcasting or website. I remember one who was so pleased with my “make free cash from credit cards” technique, he ‘emailed it round his agency’. Yet now it’s about travel, I’ve the horns of Beelzebub. So there’s no apology. No travel agent has to sell a holiday at an unprofitable price, it can refuse.

Admittedly normally I explain the full on haggling technique is best used in the ‘direct sales late’ market though, in this programme, we noted doing it with high street early bookings was an ‘experiment’.

Yet high street chains complaining ‘unfair to contrast us with direct sellers, we’ve overheads’ forget many of the same also run direct agencies and websites. If companies charge different prices to consumers depending how they buy, what’s wrong with consumers researching to find the right price?

Like it or not, if you sell big tour operators’ holidays you’re in a commodity market. Other agents may sell exactly the same holiday cheaper. Why shouldn’t consumers shop around, haggle and find best price?

The reason for the reaction is the technique works. If you genuinely provide great service, then don’t worry, I’m sure you’ll keep customers. My focus is price, not everybody’s is. Witness the ‘holiday’ programmes or newspaper travel sections showing beautiful destinations and persuading people to live the vacation dream. Any complaints about that?

In summary, nothing suggested was illegal. As for the morality, empowering consumers’ spending power isn’t immoral. Maybe next time you pay over the odds for a credit card, phone bill or shopping and need impartial pro-consumer activist advice you may think differently.

Martin Lewis
www.moneysavingexpert.com

We are all behind you Martin Goooooooooo Tiger Gooooooooo !
YahooooOOOOOOOOOoooo
This has been noticed by many but nothing said !
How can you go for a holiday pricing in 1 major travel agents & have that price slashed by another, ? Then go on to yet another Travel agent and be told we will beat any local agent plus give free insurance ?
It has happened to me on many occasions, I used to live abroad & needed to haggle as without this price battle I would never have been able to keep coming home !
Ps I agree with the knighthood Well said
I am sure our lady queen has popped in a few times
Have fun & keep on bashing that price down guys it works "
Luv Sharon x x

ducky2004

I agree with most of your post particular the need to have integrity and balance in seeking bargains.

I however think this sites do come up with some excellent research which you do appeared to have fully discounted. I have no problem with zero % cards deals where the business knowningly and have senior managers signed off on those deals. Those below cost cheap phone calls which the companies do just to get customers.

I am however on your side on some of the blatant abuse that came up on the site (Still remember the Tesco beef pack deals, buy lots of beef pack and then throw them away and yet you still get more club card points).

Of course most MSE here have jobs etc and Martin quite rightly said (although in order to defend his stance) that as long as it doesn't touch their industry/them, they are OK. Otherwise, they will also be up in arms.

Completely agree that we as people don't want to be exploited, but that also give us the responsibility not to exploit others.

I am sure we can get even cheaper shoes, DVD etc if we support 3rd world labour explotation, but as human, we must never do that.

wendy04 wrote:

Originally Posted by wendy04
oh what a surprise 'moneysavers' dont find haggling immoral .. the truth is that in my experience people here aim to in many cases knowingly exploit mistakes, or flaws in the online shoping system that a company might rely upon. they may use vouchers and money off codes that they are not entitled to. they then expect to receive the goods or services for that erroneous price.

well i would like everything to be free or cut price, who wouldnt?

haggling can be immoral though not always. what many people do not want to accept, because greed is a prime motivator here, is that they are accountable and do have a responsibility to act within reason. to not turn that haggle into something more threatening or as a right to receive goods at a self determined value because they demand it.

the truth is i we do not take into account the nature of the business we are busy exploiting , we do not factor into our prices for their costs and of course their profits without which they would not exist. in the main i have seen little care for the business that might be driven out of the market because of a genuine mistake on their part.

moneysaving should be about genuine offers, that offer a better value compared to the rest of the market ..and by sheer public demand of that service the competition is forced to lower their prices for their product or services.

i am not aware of any such thing happening here as a result of any article or post on these boards.

what we do have is many active contributors who find in one way or another of a 'loophole' or some marketing errror. so the benefits are time limited and or dependent upon the product stock levels.

this site has little to do with rip off britain in the real sense, where people are forcing major brands to meet customer demands for better value.

our supermarkets still profit at 10% whereas usa stores work on 3% net levels. this site has not changed that nor are the supermarkets under any pressure.

i think we are kidding ourselves if we think that this is about moneysaving in its real sense.

as for travel agents , our haggling does not make them cheaper, our not buying their holidays makes them cheaper. haggling just places them under possibly more threats and unruly behaviour. our choosing to seek out the companies that provide more value for each pound and investing our money into their services is what makes the markets change.

ryan air and easy jet are driven by the fact that they know they need to compete on price if they want our business, haggling with both just wont make them reduce their prices. why should it?

the travel business does have a point that we should consider instead of patting ourselves on our backs and believe that anyone here is providing something different in principle to the peer 2 peer filesharing corps that give access to free music.

if running a business is so easy why arent we all offering these fantastic deals with our very own businesses ?

ducky2004

Hi Chris,

Yes, you can do that but because of these behaviours, more people will suffer as businesses wakes up.

For example, now in mobile phone industry, they have individualise pricing approach and offer special treatment to high value customers when calling in, upgrades etc.

Of course people can exploit businesses, but busiesses also have the right to do the right thing to protect their interest and the interest of their best customers (if low value customer spend hanggling on the line for an hour, the next high value customer may have to suffer from the waiting etc).

At some point, you may see waterstone employing facial regconition technology that bars plain abusers from entering... (asian comic shops already done that, albeit manually..). And also there is a differnece in Waterstone case as they are selling identical item compared to Amazon and in most cases cannot give you a recommendation of the book you are after and hence adds zero value.

Chris_Powell wrote:

I have had a read of the atricle and letters after being impressed with the article on the site and having booked my own holiday DIY recently. From my experience you don't get any level of service from a travel agent - they are the one's who have no morals. A case in point was my honeymoon where I explained what I wanted, yet when I got there the place was teeming with kids (in school term time) and was not really as I wished - how much do the travel agents really know - they cannot know every hotel in every resort and self research on the internet is just as valuable. When I booked my own I got better than travel agent prices on every part of my trip, the only way I could afford to go to a friend's wedding.

Also what makes the travel industry any different from any other industry? I can go into Waterstones and sit on a sofa and read books and then buy them from Amazon if they are cheaper - I can go to my bank and discuss with them my finances and best options but I am free to buy financial services from the cheapest provider - the key issue is not that they provide service / information / assitance but do they provide added value? If I get my holiday from them at a certain price does that add any value compared to buying it piecemeal or booking direct. I think that since the answer most of the time is no then that is the reason for the increase in direct selling and booking over the internet.

Surely moneysavers will agree that we don't want the cheapest option if it isn't any good. We want value for money! Viva MSE!

barron_2

Totally agree with Chris (Travelman)
The Big 4 try to corner the market,us independants are fighting back.
For us to "discount" a deal ,then we are cutting into our earnings.
We offer our clients The Best Deal within their Budget(sometimes just over/under).
People over budget as well as under budget.
Get your prices from TUI etc,then go to your Local independant,they might not get you the exact same,but they will find you as good.if not better!.
Its about time that we got back to using OUR local business.Do not forget to use an ATOL registered agent.The prices are no dearer than DIYing,plus your covered,and you save a hell of a lot of time!
An example being ,A client had found herself(diy) a holiday in the Dom Republic totalling £5000(4xadultx14nightsxAIx3*)We found her 4*in upgraded rooms,better resort for £3950!!,could have charged her more,but she booked another holiday for the winter with the savings and 3 people have come to us through her reccomendation.Bet the Big 4 wouldnt have done that!.
Happy Hols.

TRAVELMAN_2

EXACTLY! Baron....you'll know as an ATOL Agent that ground handles such as Jumob/hotelbeds are the people MED HOTELS, etc....BUY from....so as an ATOL Agent we get even cheaper than med-can still put on some commision-customer is still getting a better deal that is ATOL PROTECTED. If you DIY & say, go to Majorca in a busy all-inclusive Hotel & they 'bump' you (overbook) & move you to another Hotel-WHAT DO YOU DO? You have no noe to help you at all-toy're not covered by booking conditions as YOU HAVE NOT BOOKED A PACKAGE HOLIDAY.

The most our dearest ATOL delas work out as is a maximum of say, £10 a head dearer than DIY (& in 90% of cases the same/cheaper), for a family of 4 is £8-£10 pp not worth it to know that A)-you have 24 hour backup & b) you are properly protected!

I watched the apprentice last night & must say the sight of people haggling (looked more like begging) left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I simply won't enter in to it-I know what I need ro earn & just don't have the time to 'play the game'. I must say though, on my point re: Easter hagglers losing their holiday...I did have a wry smile......try & be too clever & you can lose the holiday you're trying to barter down!

atta

Hi Martin to clear up a couple of things. If a travel agent is doing his job properly then they will check doing the hotel direct as well as through the operators. Generally there are approx 5 ways to do this. I have been in travel 26 years next month and will check the operators package, the hotel direct, the hotel through the likes of Hotel Connect and various online sites that we have access to, and the hotels own website. A travel agent can add flights and car hire separately and often beat all those so called internet deals. It is therefore not always best to do a package. However If the travel agent forms and advertises a specific package for you then they are in fact THE TOUR OPERATOR in the eyes of ATOL and are liable for any shortcomings that you may have in the products that are booked for you. You are not on your own as you would be if you booked it all yourself. Fortunately we also need to make a living. This is something that our clients do not begrudge us doing because of the level of service we offer.

With regards to flights, we have a system that will check all the no frills and I mean all the no frills carriers (you will not have heard of half of them). At the same time it will check Expedia, Opodo, Last Minute and the like and all the scheduled airlines own websites for the requested routing together with our own "Special" fares. It does this in seconds - All of them together, and reports back with LIVE availability not scraped old information which - OH IM SORRY - COMPUTER SAYS NO ! Needless to say we do not put that on our website ************* for your obvious reasons but like our clients to call us to talk through the best method for them.

Thanks