Experienced electrician advice needed for a charity

angelavdavis

Hi, need some assistance from experienced electricians please.

My brother has been asked by a local charity to help renovate an external toilet located in a brick built structure in an area behind their shop.

What had started as a "can you paint it and replace the vandalised sink" has turned into a bigger job (doesn't it always).

It already has power running to it which is surface mounted on the wall (even over the sink :eek:).

The toilet was vandalised previously, so the existing electric water heater tap is no longer working and needs replacement, but other than this, there are no other changes to the existing installation. Obviously, the electric is disconnected from this building at the consumer unit at the moment.

Is my brother right in thinking that the following needs to happen:

1) The conduit is OK being white plastic? By the way, it runs around the walls at ceiling height other than when it drops down to the lightswitch and water heater.
2) The water heater now needs its own circuit to comply with regs such as a shower would? The existing one is on the same circuit as the light which is on its own circuit protected by a circuit breaker.

Please can someone confirm? If his assumption is correct, he can do 1 but needs to get a registered sparky in to do 2.

Thanks very much

ormus

2. a water heater should never be on a light circuit. protected or not.
1. not too sure about shop business premises. industrial/factories must use metal conduit. for fire safety.

i would assume the work does come under part P?

zax47

ormus wrote: »

2. a water heater should never be on a light circuit. protected or not.

Maybe they share a common circuit wired in 2.5mm, capable of 20A+, protected by a suitable breaker and the lighting wired via a spur? In which case your assumption is wrong. We don't know enough about the installation to say.

If I were wiring it then I'd have the light via an FCU, on a common radial with the water heater. (assuming that's all that's in there)

i would assume the work does come under part P?

Probably not, as it's a shop, but it may if there is a dwelling (flat/maisonette) above sharing a common supply with the shop. Even then, if all he is doing is reinstatement or replacement/repair of existing, without provision of a new circuit, then I'd say not.

However, he really could do with a sparks in to do insulation resistance (IR) and other tests to confirm the wiring is OK before re-energizing that section, but other than that he can do what he wants. Surface plastic conduit is fine, at least it has some protection.

brightontraveller

Part P is only for domestic Installations/Dwellings …? There is no such scheme for any other type if installation e.g commercial /industrial etc
Depends on the conduit being used many plastic type ones become brittle when exposed to UV rays and other external influences
External parts of the installation should be protected by an RCD RCBO etc

Owain_Moneysaver

Commercial installations are subject to the Electricity At Work Regulations and must be carried out by a competent person.

It's not clear whether this is voluntary or paid work, but if it's paid work then OP's brother should steer well clear unless he has public liability insurance for electrical work.

brightontraveller

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

Commercial installations are subject to the Electricity At Work Regulations and must be carried out by a competent person.

It's not clear whether this is voluntary or paid work, but if it's paid work then OP's brother should steer well clear unless he has public liability insurance for electrical work.

The “Electricity at Work Regulations” are you stating under Health and Safety...?

There is no such Scheme governing works in these type of installation such as there is with domestic dwellings Part P competent person scheme.

If it’s paid or voluntary has no bearing at all as to weather the person should have insurance? (They may get the person Authorised to instruct them to carry out the works to sign some sort of waiver, exemption or disclaimer but would not be sure on its validity …?)

If they are carrying out works outside the scope or governance of any governing body then I would always advise they have sufficient knowledge/expertise/qualifications within the field to be able to carry out works safely and within the regulations statuary or otherwise or employ someone who does …?

Owain_Moneysaver

brightontraveller wrote: »

The “Electricity at Work Regulations” are you stating under Health and Safety...?

Yes, the EAWR are Regulations subsidiary to the Health and Safety at Work Act.

brightontraveller wrote: »

There is no such Scheme governing works in these type of installation such as there is with domestic dwellings Part P competent person scheme.

Correct. The Regulations require the person doing the work to be actually competent (this includes various levels of being under supervision or instruction), unlike Part P which only requires the firm to be member of a trade association and says nothing about the competence of the actual operative.

brightontraveller wrote: »

If it’s paid or voluntary has no bearing at all as to weather the person should have insurance? (They may get the person Authorised to instruct them to carry out the works to sign some sort of waiver, exemption or disclaimer but would not be sure on its validity …?)

If it's voluntary then the organisation is responsible for the health and safety of the volunteer. If it's paid work then he has a responsibility for the safety of the organisation and its volunteers.

brightontraveller

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

.
Correct. The Regulations require the person doing the work to be actually competent (this includes various levels of being under supervision or instruction), unlike Part P which only requires the firm to be member of a trade association and says nothing about the competence of the actual operative.

Which is why I stated...?

"If they are carrying out works outside the scope or governance of any governing body then I would always advise they have sufficient knowledge/expertise/qualifications within the field to be able to carry out works safely and within the regulations statuary or otherwise or employ someone who does …?"

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

.
If it's voluntary then the organisation is responsible for the health and safety of the volunteer. If it's paid work then he has a responsibility for the safety of the organisation and its volunteers.

Yes health and safety? But I fail to see what relevance this has to insurance

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

It's not clear whether this is voluntary or paid work, but if it's paid work then OP's brother should steer well clear unless he has public liability insurance for electrical work.

Works paid or otherwise you may have a responcibility e.g The building set on fire as result of the works the charities insurance could be void or the insurance company may chase the person whom carried out the works for payment to cover the cost. If carrying out work paid or otherwise you would be extremely naive or stupid to think that you may not need any form of insurance whomever is responsible?
If the works were not carried out in accordance to the regulations by a suitably trained person they could still find themself liable for prosecution... As the charity could themselves if the carried out works resulted in injury or damage to person, property etc Ignorance of the laws governing this a not a valid argument in British courts but may be used in mitigation...

If they a not a competent person/ competent (As defined in Definitions Bs 7671) to carry out the works then they should get someone who is....