Another Rental Deposit Question

alexjohnson

(deleted.)

clutton_2

as a landlady i can well understand your concerns, and i would refer you to another very long thread currently at the "court" stage due to non-return of deposit.

However, particularly because the flat was brand new, i would expect it to be returned to me in spic and span order. But then i do my maintainance.

Your landlord has possibly been struggling with the builders to do snaggings - (not your concern i know).

Of course there will be a small amount of wear and tear, but, stains to carpets (or whatever) need paying for to be cleaned and removed (this is what the deposit is for). I cannot see how anyone can stipulate how you clean it - its clean, or it aint ! If this is in the terms of your Agreement, i would call it an "Unfair Term" myself.

BUT, do take plentiful photos and video footage of the flat after you have cleaned it , and INSIST on being present at the departure inventory, and signing the inventory at that time, so that there is utter clarity about the depature condition.

I assume an inventory was done at the time you moved in ?

by the way, it is illegal for a landlord to insist that you give 2 months notice - the law says landlords give 2, tenants give 1 - this may give you a way out !!!

jonclarke

alexjohnson wrote:

I am planning to give my notice next week, which is two months. The landlord has six weeks' deposit. The flat was brand new when I moved in and there have been numerous snagging issues, none of which have been attended to. In fairness none have been serious, though one is that the spare bathroom seems to have a leak into the toilet so it always looks unflushed: it's really gross, and it's been over a year. The agents have also let themselves in on two occasions with no notice despite explicit instructions that they were to ask, and that really annoys me as no one has a right just to march into my home unannounced. But, rent is paid on time and the flat is well-maintained with a cleaner coming every week. The flat was let unfurnished so there's been nothing to stain or break that wasn't my own. In short I have been a good tenant.

However, the agents gave me a list of how they expected the flat to be cleaned when I moved in. This stated not just that I would have to steam clean carpets, but went on to say that a rented machine would not be sufficient, and that they wanted me to get professionals. This is an example - basically they want it professionally cleaned from top to bottom.

My view is that I should be expected to return the flat clean. Clean does not mean a germ-free bubble; it means clean. We all know what that means. The professional cleaners that come in afterwards shouldn't have to clear up my rubbish and there shouldn't be dust etc., and if the agent wants to show the flat it should be presentable. While I would want to move into a professionally cleaned flat, as far as I'm concerned that is the landlord's duty, not the tenant's. I would be interested to hear what landlords' views are because my view as a good tenant is that I'm being taken for a ride.

I had a similar exchange with my last flat in London, and it took me 13 months to recover my deposit and I just don't want to play this game. As a result I am contemplating paying only two weeks' rent (so they can keep the deposit) on the basis that they've never dealt with the snags and that I am likely to be held to a standard they have completely failed to achieve themselves. We all know it will take longer than six weeks to evict me, particularly if I respond to correspondence. As I will be going into a corporate let next and then will probably buy I couldn't care less about a reference. Thoughts?

I have to say I think this business about steam cleaning every surface is crazy: what will actually happen (it seems to me) is that good tenants like me will just not pay the last month if it looks like landlords have completely unrealistic expectations as to how flats will be returned to them. I don't see how this helps them as if I don't think my deposit is going to be returned, I won't pay the rent. And if the landlord effectively loses the deposit, what does he have to make me do any cleaning at all, but my own pride that I'm not the kind of person who would do that? I may not be, but many thousands are!

I was under the impression that a landlord or agent cannot insist on "professional cleaning" as there is do legal definition of cleanliness. It sounds like they are taking the mickey ..

Did you sign an inventory when you moved in?

Mrs_Arkwright

Who's to say what is professional? How will they know whether the flat has been cleaned by you or a 'professional'? If you have a cleaning lady, I assume she cleans as a profession, therefore doesn't that make her a 'professional cleaner'?

jonclarke

alexjohnson wrote:

No, but I did receive one, and it was the document with the nonsense about getting professional cleaners. The flat was brand new; condition isn't in dispute. And I haven't trashed the place and there's no damage I'm worried about. I just don't think it is reasonable - infering laterally from the doctrine of reasonable wear and tear - to expect me to do the landlord's job and get professional cleaners in (over and above my weekly cleaner). Sure I should have to hoover. Sure I should have to give everything a good clean. But I don't think I have to return the flat to the exact condition it was when I moved in - or do I? (Let's leave aside the contract; I'm talking here about what it is reasonable for a landlord to expect a tenant to do.)

However before I get on to my high horse I wanted to get a sense from the MSE folks about what is "reasonable". Maybe the world has moved on and steam cleaning are the norm now and it is me that is out of touch?

I think you have perfectly reasonable expectations, i.e. a thorough vacuuming, dusting and cleaning is fine, without having to pay for the services of "professional" cleaners (we had our deposit returned in full after giving the house a good clean, without using "professionals"). I would only call in a professional if there was, for example, a stain on a carpet that I couldn't remove myself, as this may be considered more than wear and tear. The other things I did was to fill any holes made by picture hooks and paint over them. I also gave the oven a good clean with some oven cleaner bought from the supermarket.

At the end of the day, if the agent/landlord does not have an inventory SIGNED BY YOU for when you moved in, they cannot prove the state of the place at that point in time. Its up to the landlord to prove the state of the dwelling, not the tenant, as I understand it.

Molanole

Mrs_Arkwright wrote:

Who's to say what is professional? How will they know whether the flat has been cleaned by you or a 'professional'? If you have a cleaning lady, I assume she cleans as a profession, therefore doesn't that make her a 'professional cleaner'?

In some cases they will ask for an invoice from the cleaning company. I know ours does as we saw the invoice of the previous tenants when we moved in.

jonclarke

Molanole wrote:

In some cases they will ask for an invoice from the cleaning company. I know ours does as we saw the invoice of the previous tenants when we moved in.

And whose to say the cleaning company will do a more thorough job than the tenant? As I said previously, there's no legal definition of cleanliness, so "professional" cleaning cannot be insisted on IMHO.

All this discussion is academic anyway, if the landlord has no signed inventory.

silvercar

I am new to BTL so I took advice from my agent. I paid for the carpets to be proffesionally cleaned prior to the tenant moving in. I was told it was sensible to do this as it gives the tenant a clean home to start with and they will be obliged to pay for a professional clean at the end of the tenancy. The other option was to leave them untreated (they looked clean) and then it would be hard to argue that the tenant should clean them afterwards as minor stains could be considered fair wear and tear.

Based on the advice I was given it seems you have to get them professionally cleaned at the end if that's what you had at the start.

clutton_2

normally i would agree about the lack of inventory - but, this was a brand new property when alex moved into it.

A judge will for sure take this into consideration when deciding if stains/marks etc are fair wear and tear or not.

i agree it is unreasonable to insist on "professional cleaners".

jonclarke

clutton wrote:

normally i would agree about the lack of inventory - but, this was a brand new property when alex moved into it.

A judge will for sure take this into consideration when deciding if stains/marks etc are fair wear and tear or not.

i agree it is unreasonable to insist on "professional cleaners".

Whose to say stains or damage were not caused by carpet layers, kitchen fitters, the landlord, or an agent showing potential tenants around? This is the purpose of an inventory. It is for the landlord's benefit. Despite being a new property, a judge would ask to see a signed inventory as at the beginning of the tenancy. No signed inventory ... landlord has no leg to stand on, and rightly so, as they're not doing their job properly.