Legal Speak!

Essex_Jim

Is there anyone that can help with the legal equivalent in words of 'Full and Final' Settlement when paying a 'fine'?

My stupid daughter picked up a penalty charge for paying a ticket one stop short on the train. Fair cop! But they gave her a very hard time about her legitimate season ticket that she uses on another rail network. So I want the rail network to confirm closure on the penulty charge and pursue their conduct over the season ticket.

HO87

My belief is that as your daughter is making a payment to defer any other form of action that is provided for in law then you cannot attach any conditions to the acceptance of that payment which is effectively what you would be doing by placing a "Full & Final" phrase to it.

Although you've not specified what the "very hard time" was about I'm guessing that there was some form of implied difficulty that could be caused for her in relation to her season ticket. I'd not be surprised if there wasn't some form of clause in the season ticket t & c's that allows them to levy a sanction where tickets are misused. You might want to elaborate.

Essex_Jim

The hard time came from reviewing her season ticket with another network - which was not involved in the journey - but part of the same company. A season ticket deal was offered to her school, where, even if she was 16 or turning 16 in the academic year, she could purchase a season ticket at child rate and an additional 10% discount. The ticket was purchased through a central office. We have all the documentation to show the offer.

My issue is they tried to take the season ticket from her as they stated she had defrauded the network by purchasing a Junior season ticket when she was 16. Once she called home in floods of tears they decided to copy the ticket and refer it to the other network.

Fair cop of the purchased ticket. Stupid girl! But fraud is a serious allegation! Especially when it can be proven to be a wrong allegation. And the season ticket was nothing to do with the journey she had just made.

IMHO the comments of the Staff involved as a minimum is poor practice. Thus, having closed the issue on the purchased ticket, I would like 'observations' on the actions and allegations of the staff over the season ticket.

HO87

Essex_Jim wrote: »

Fair cop of the purchased ticket. Stupid girl! But fraud is a serious allegation! Especially when it can be proven to be a wrong allegation. And the season ticket was nothing to do with the journey she had just made.

IMHO the comments of the Staff involved as a minimum is poor practice. Thus, having closed the issue on the purchased ticket, I would like 'observations' on the actions and allegations of the staff over the season ticket.

If it was possible to show that the staff concerned had specific knowledge of the deal that had been offered to your daughter's school then their actions would be marginal. However, as I'm sure we've all experienced operations staff do not always know what sales staff have offered - cause of many a business issue.

As far as their reaction to your daughter was concerned if we were to put ourselves in their shoes then I'd suggest that the focus changes slightly but significantly. They had discovered that your daughter had obtained a ticket that did not reflect the journey she actually made. Given the fact that she held/holds a season ticket it would be a reasonable conclusion that she is familiar with things including how to buy tickets and her destination.

With that conclusion in mind, her actions in obtaining the "short ticket" (for the want of a better expression) could be efficiently argued to have an element of dishonesty or fraud about it. The railway staff, finding that, prima facie, her season ticket appeared to have been issued outwith "normal" parameters it was, once again, a not unreasonable conclusion that fraud and/or dishonesty may have been involved in some way, shape or form.

I'm afraid that in principal I'm with the railway staff. You are quite correct that fraud is a serious allegation and they appear to have made quite proper enquiries in pursuit of that potential offence which ultimately was not proven. It clearly isn't possible to comment on the manner in which they were made but from your daughter's perspective I would respectively suggest that this was an object lesson in the law of unintended consequences.

Essex_Jim

Comments noted.

Maybe partisan I am but I do not think the behavior is acceptable.

I guess your opinion is that the behavior is acceptable and that my daughter got what she deserved. So lets agree to disagree.

I guess you would let the seaon ticket section go without comment? I think it is only fair to point that the season ticket is valid. But them do I let it go to avoid them taking the moral high ground with the original offence and pursue it further?

HO87

Essex_Jim wrote: »

Comments noted.

Maybe partisan I am but I do not think the behavior is acceptable.

I guess your opinion is that the behavior is acceptable and that my daughter got what she deserved. So lets agree to disagree.

I guess you would let the seaon ticket section go without comment? I think it is only fair to point that the season ticket is valid. But them do I let it go to avoid them taking the moral high ground with the original offence and pursue it further?

Sorry EJ but I think I'm closer to your own position than you think. I specifically said that in principle (although I note I couldn't actually spell it correctly in the post) I was with the railway staff and that it wasn't possible to comment on the manner in which they conducted their enquiries.

There are a number of ways in which enquiries can be made some of which we are likely to find more acceptable than others and we could all sympathise with the humiliation your daughter undoubtedly felt. My agreement was with the principle only not necessarily the manner and, therefore, the behaviour of the staff concerned.

It was not my intention to imply that you daughter got her just desserts and by suggesting that the law of unintended consequences may have applied was seeking to identify a positive aspect she could draw on from what, I'm sure, was an otherwise entirely negative experience.

As far as making mention of the season ticket in your reply its probably not a good on the basis of letting sleeping dog lie.