'Should we starve the jobless back to work?' poll discussion

plimsoll

cw18 wrote: »

Having monitored my spending closely for the last 18 months (due to a major drop in income), I did some number crunching to come up with my vote.

I firstly removed my 'allowances' for the dog (who could be rehomed) and the car.

Then I reduced my groceries (by half), toiletries/cleaning (by 25%) and water, gas and electricity (also by 25%). These reductions were based on the fact I currently have a teenage son at home, so if it was just me I'd use less - and if I was on my own in a rental it would be a smaller place so hopefully cheaper to heat

I then cut my house insurance budget by half as a 'best guess' (if I were renting I wouldn't need buildings insurance, and if in a smaller property I'd have to downsize my belongings so less contents cover needed). insurance?? I can't afford contents insurance - min quote £23 per month from one BS (not looked any further tbh), but have very little of serious value anyway. If the worst happened we'd just have to start again with furniture etc marginally more rubbish than we have now, would prob get a Community Care Grant for some in such circumstances & have to get a budgeting loan for what that didn't cover.

I also removed my endowment premiums and central heating breakdown - again, these are things I wouldn't need if in a rental property.

Next I reduced the council tax budget (smaller property should mean a lower band) then added on £50/week for the assumed rent. If you're on income-based benefits such as JSA you don't pay council tax, you apply for council tax benefits which then get put against bill - i.e. you get a nil owed bill.

This gives me a figure of just over £6k, but has nothing for bus fares to get to job centre/interviews (bearing in mind I'd have given up the car) - and nothing at all for clothing/shoes (shouldn't need much, but shoes are the one thing I can't compromise on partly for medical reasons and can get pricey when I find something suitable). My budget also doesn't include anything for alcohol, tobacco products or a social life. what would you make it if you removed the amount you put in for insurance/council tax?

As such I considered the £5k figure to be much too low even for 'survivial', but would have settled for £6.5-7k rather than the £7.5k I went for.


I believe the National Minimum Wage (for those aged 22 or over) is currently £5.80. So if I worked for 40 hours a week on that wage, then my gross income would be just over £12k/year - and throwing that through an on-line calculator tells me my nett pay would be £10,200.

On this basis I still think £7k would be more appropriate than £7.5k, but don't think £7.5k would be enough to have me sitting back and thinking I needn't bother looking for work.

I guess car etc or bus being cheaper depends on family circumstances & prices where you live etc. I drive my dad's car & he pays the insurance (coming off my inheritance to be fair to my siblings) so I only pay the petrol. This works out cheaper than bus fares just for me (children still young enough to be free) - I've got friends who've just got a car who are a couple with older children where even paying insurance & petrol it's still massively cheaper than bus tickets for the 4 of them. If you lived somewhere with low bus prices or where you could walk to most places you needed to go (job interviews, supermarkets etc) with just the occasional longer journey then public transport would be cheaper.

Stryder

damn - just wrote a long message and lost it.
Cant be bothered re-writing. lol

Cut or scrap benefits and the economy suffers with increase cost of crime and a last of money being spent. Statistically those in lower income tend to spend all their money whilst those with higher income tend to spend. Therefore reduce those with lower incomes including benefits then many companies will lose massive amount of business - which leads to closures and further job cuts.

We need to find way people can work and get rewarded for it. There is a lot of misinformed comments who do not understand the nature of the beast - and for those advocating no or minimal benefits, can you PLEASE give me an example of where this policy has helped another country socially? South Africa is a developed country with massive poverty and it is one of the most dangerous countries to visit with massive cries problems - lots of S America is like that to.

Stryder

>Originally Posted by antonia1
>This poll is supposed to be about young, single people and that is where I based >my choice. As a young single person myself I would only want the basics from JSA >and would like to repay society through any voluntary work possible. As such, I >voted for £100 per week based on the following calculation:
>Rent : £50
>Council Tax : £20
>Bills : £15
>Food : £10
>Interview costs : £5
I>f any of my estimates are wrong, my vote would be increased or decreased >accordingly.
>no council tax on income based benefits, bills I don't think I ever paid separate to >my rent when in shared houses, I now average approx £20-25 a week (over the >year, much more to pay in winter as on PPM atm) alth

food £10 a week?
that is say at least 21 meals not including snacks or drinks
50p per meal?
you would get beans and toast for that BUT surely you would want to follow government guidelines to get 5 a day (ill health is expensive for the NHS)

but also £15 per week bills? Electricity, gas, insurance, TV licence, etc? Phone Bills (you need it to call about jobs), stamps, paper and envelopes to write to jobs, and possibly money to print off CVs? Also maybe internet access to search for jobs - our local library has 20 mins max time per day so you do not get a lot of time to do real searches.

And what about clothes? There is a chance you may need new clothes at some point?

Medicine, if you get ill even aspirins cost money

detergent, washing up liquid, deodorant? not very cheap

At the end of this people would be (and maybe are) stuck with zero spending money to visit family, buy birthday cards, take up active pass times etc. JSA is £65 per week and really - there is not much change from that. The bigger shame is that too many spend it on booze and fags but i do not see a way to control how people spend there money without becoming a police state!

lydia858512

I totally agree with all the comments, and like Joe am amazed how they can afford to buy ready made sandwiches and cakes, etc., when they are on benefits and only live minutes from home. They obviously have too much disposable income. I have worked all my life, have had to give up work due to stress and I am offered job seekers allowance of £65.45. As I have a pet shop, which is barely making me a living, I qualify for £52.05 per week working tax credits. It does make me cross when I have paid into the system for nearly 40 years and I end up with so little support when I am trying to remain independent. I should have been a single mother and got everything paid for me and never had to work!!!

JugglingJoe wrote: »

I reckon that at some point in receiving benefits, people should go on a course for basic money handling. I work with unemployed people. I see some who apply for 1 or 2 jobs a month, because they have lots of benefit payment; where as I see some single mothers who struggle. At lunch I have sandwiches, value soup etc to save money. My customers all buy KFC, and convenience food from the local shop...All of them! Either they are not struggling (and they should be motivated to some extent), or they are very naive about money saving and budgeting, and so need a course to help them.

I managed to live as a student a few years ago on far less than the average in this poll...it kind of feels a bit unfair that I had to live on barebones and I have to pay it back through the studentloancompany and others feel that it is their right to live a life with some luxuries, and not pay it back.

For those that voted £25,000 - Can I get a few thousand more too so that I get the average pay? (I live in London too). Also, what incentive should I get to stay in this job, if I could get it all by living on benefits?

MartinW142

I think that there may not be jobs for all unemployed people, but I don't understand why benefits can't be given in the form of food/clothing vouchers so it can't be spent on booze, fags, drugs and foreign holidays etc,

marko2002

My son who left school at Christmas has applied for more jobs than I can count, apprenticeships and so forth, the result? .. nothing!! - I even phoned our local job centre for advice on getting him a job and they told us to contact the careers office where he could possibly claim benefits! Why the hell are they telling us to claim benefits, he wants to work!. Careers Scotland are a waste of time also, he went there and told them he just wanted to get out into the work-place, they sent him on a young persons course which basically amounts to a job-club type thing, he was producing better CV's than they could!.
The truth is, some young people are claiming benefits because they have no choice, as it is we're having to bear the cost of our son (rightly so) because he is 16 and doesn't qualify for benefits unless we phone the job centre and tell them we're about to throw him out on the streets and they will pay "digs" for him. What kind of message are we giving our kids when we don't have the jobs available for them, yet they know they can claim some form of benefit, where's the motive to work?. It's taking us all our efforts to keep him from giving up after 4 months on constant applying for jobs, 99% of which he doesn't even get a response let alone a rejection!. I pity young people these days, I really do.

gems2381

plimsoll wrote: »

councils & council groups (like surestart centres) have to buy through apporved suppliers. it means they pay a lot more than you or I who can shop around for the best price. Not saving taxpayers money at all. TBH I'm amzed that in the example someone has quoted the person told them it was for a mattress, if it was a Budgeting Loan then you don't have to specify what it is exactly, just category (e.g. furniture, paying off other loan, etc). And it is a loan, they have money taken off benefits every week to repay it, usually over no more than 2 years. Those working with a decent credit rating can achieve a similar thing (interest free loan to buy things first rather than saving) using credit cards with interest free purchase period, then switching to new CC with interest free balance transfer period etc (ok there is balance transfer fee so pay slightly more than nothing unless can pay back in interest free purchase period).

Anna

I'm not exactly sure what kind of loan it was all I know was that she told the council she needed it to buy a mattress for her husband as he is registered disabled and was laughing about how'd she'd used that money to buy a computer.....I also know she now has a laptop too so probably told more lies to get it!
I'm fully aware of what a loan is and am aware that this money was to be paid back, if it was over 2 years it works out at almost £6 a week. Yes people with good credit ratings do get this option and that's how banks and credit card companies make their money. My point which you seem to have missed is that she LIED to get the loan to spend on an item that a lot of people regard as a luxury and have to save for!
She has been reported for benefit fraud (she does hairdressing on the side) on a number of occassions and again laughs about it as they can't do anything unless she is actually caught redhanded receiving payment. Benefits should be there for people that NEED them, people who play the system really get on my nerves.

gems2381

adouglasmhor wrote: »

They used to do this, it meant your children had to wear outdated horrible clothes and really stick out at school. The co op were the suppliers in this area.

We weren't on about clothing in this instance, it was about disability supplies. Clothing vouchers for highstreet chains would be sufficient for this.

marko2002

she needed it to buy a mattress for her husband as he is registered disabled and was laughing about how'd she'd used that money to buy a computer

To be honest, I'm surprised on 2 things, the first being she would ask for a loan for something like this because grants are available (so she's really not as smart as you would think), and secondly I wouldn't have anticipated the authorities granting a loan for those purposes because of that. Only thing I can assume is that they would rather have the money paid back than issue a grant.

She has been reported for benefit fraud (she does hairdressing on the side) on a number of occassions and again laughs about it as they can't do anything unless she is actually caught redhanded receiving payment.

I'm not sure where you're getting your info from but I'm afraid this is complete bull, if the authorities have reason to believe you are working, irrespective of whether you receive payment or not, they can stop all your benefits. If you are in receipt of job seekers then you are considered to no longer be available for work, money stops - if you are in receipt of any form of sickness benefit then you are considered fit for work if found working.

gems2381

It could've been a grant they gave her but she said she'd got a loan from the council (to be honest I don't think she's smart at all lol, in fact she's the total opposite), which makes it worse if receipts aren't required!

This was all from her own mouth! She's very brazen about it and thinks the world really does owe her a living plus whatever she can get on the side. She isn't on job seekers she's classed as her husbands carer.

I could write a book about the things I saw in that house!