hospital car parking charges

Elmer_Dudd

Whitchurch Hospital in North Cardiff have just hit upon the idea of raising money through parking fees.:mad:

The only trouble is that they have sporting facilities in their grounds that local Rugby and Cricket teams have already paid to use. This has resulted in the Hospital security sneaking about trying to put tickets/photograph cars in situ of the players without any thought to how badly this is affecting the teams.
Also supporters will be hammered for parking at games as well.:eek:

All this when the Hospital car parks are virtually empty as the teams only go there in the evenings or on a Saturday Afternoon.

Well done to Cardiff and Vale NHS trust for damaging community relations just to make some easy money!!!!:mad:

JasonLVC

taxiphil wrote:

The hospital car park is public land which we all own and have already paid for.

The money raised from car park charges goes into the NHS Trust's central pot and isn't spent on the car park.

I fully understand the 'tax on the sick' argument, you're right - but sick people CHOOSE to drive to the hospital. To extend the argument you could say that Prescritions are a tax on the sick - but we all pay our £6 or so, we all pay for our glasses and we all pay for our dental treatment (except those on benefits, of course) and so I say in the scheme of things, car parking charges are optional, just like prescriptions and glasses - and yet no-one complains about that.

I've spent a fortune in carparking fees both at hosptials and also at train stations and airports, but the money does genuinely go to help the hospital offset it's costs, else they'd be even in more trouble. The alternative is free carparking, spaces blocked by cheapskate office workers working nearby an/or full of patients who out-stay their welcome thus making it harder for other car drivers parking and visiting relatives. The alternative is to tax us even more and still have the same problems with the NHS and it's carparks.

How often do most people go to hospital anyway - once or twice a year if not less?. Plus those regular visitors can get a discount pass if they ask. I find it difficult to balance the notion of carparking being essential to the treatment of a patient whilst we accept paying for drugs to make us better?.

As my earlier post, it is very emotive and you could argue that it should be free, but we demand so much of our NHS already and respect it very little. We're accusing them of being money grabbing - that's how desperate they've become in order to survive today (they're even witholding NI payments to the taxman according to papers this week) - the NHS is in crisis folks!.

taxiphil

JasonLVC wrote:

I fully understand the 'tax on the sick' argument, you're right - but sick people CHOOSE to drive to the hospital.

As some people have already said in this thread, there is often no alternative to the motor car because public transport is completely inadequate (see lemontart's post above - that's a very typical scenario for many people). I live only 15 miles from my nearest hospital but there is absolutely no public transport whatsoever running from my town to the town where the hospital is. Besides which, people are at their most vulnerable when they are sick, and they are the very people who are least suited to standing at bus stops in the rain. If you had an elderly relative or small child who needed daily radiotherapy treatment, would you tell them to put their coat and scarf on and go and wait for the next No.33 because a ride in a motor car was an unjustifiable luxury?

JasonLVC wrote:

To extend the argument you could say that Prescritions are a tax on the sick - but we all pay our £6 or so, we all pay for our glasses and we all pay for our dental treatment (except those on benefits, of course) and so I say in the scheme of things, car parking charges are optional, just like prescriptions and glasses - and yet no-one complains about that.

The natural progression of your argument is that we should completely do away with free healthcare altogether and just treat those who can afford it. Hey, let's charge cancer patients £££s for their medicines, and their car parking, and seeing as it's obviously such a fair thing to do, let's charge them for the doctor's time too? They're using a service, so why shouldn't they pay?

If you believe in that system, like they have in America, then fine. But it's not what the NHS in Britain is supposed to be about. That's why our taxes are so high.

(By the way, there was uproar when Thatcher brought in prescription charges; people did complain in their millions. Just because New Labour didn't scrap them doesn't mean people are any more happy about it.)

JasonLVC wrote:

The alternative is free carparking, spaces blocked by cheapskate office workers working nearby an/or full of patients who out-stay their welcome thus making it harder for other car drivers parking and visiting relatives.

I see your point here, but this problem could be overcome by having a system of car parking passes issued by the hospital reception, or to have a charge which is refunded at the hospital reception, similar to the system run by supermarkets in city centres to stop non-customers abusing their car parks.

JasonLVC wrote:

The alternative is to tax us even more and still have the same problems with the NHS and it's carparks.

Well, no. The alternative is for the NHS to be run more efficiently by the government, instead of wasting £100s of millions on lining the pockets of greedy equity firms who are now owning and running our NHS hospitals under the Private Finance Initiative and putting unbearable financial burdens on the NHS Trusts. There's just been a Dispatches programme on Channel 4 about the appalling deal the taxpayer is getting under these schemes. Did you know, for example, that the firms that own and run the hospitals charge the NHS Trust £200 to hang a mirror and £420 to fit a light switch? And believe me, that's just the tip of the iceberg. The stranglehold of the private investors, combined with the woeful mismanagement and inefficiency of the Department of Health, means the taxpayer is getting a worse deal than ever before, and that is why NHS Trusts are looking to claw back even more money with things like car parking.

JasonLVC wrote:

How often do most people go to hospital anyway - once or twice a year if not less?

Most people are lucky enough not to have to attend hospital regularly. But the morality debate here is about people with serious illnesses, isn't it? I doubt they'll be comforted by the fact that they're being hit in the wallet because they were unlucky enough to become ill. Not to forget the underpaid nurses who also have to pay for parking on a daily basis.

JasonLVC wrote:

the NHS is in crisis folks!.

I'd certainly concur with that.

JasonLVC

taxiphil wrote:

As some people have already said in this thread, there is often no alternative to the motor car because public transport is completely inadequate

I accept that there are sometimes no alternative, but the answer isn't to provide free car parking for all and sundry. Do these same people not travel at all then?. Never go on holiday, never visit relatives up North/down South?. I agree vulnerable people shouldn't be at bus stops so they have alternatives, drive and pay, pay a taxi, get a friend to drop them off. I just feel that sometimes we expect everything to revolve around us as a people, rather than look for (sometimes difficult) alternatives, in the same way some people still don't understand the concept of recycling, energy saving, etc.

NB. Most hospitals still offer a contribution to travel costs if you are on benefits/low income/pensioner as well as the volunteer driver service

I don't accept the 'we've paid for public land' argument as if that was the case then why do I have to pay to park in council car parks?. Why can't I park my car right outside the shop on the corner as I've paid my 'road' tax. if have large rubbish items I have to pay the council to take them away, again I've already paid my taxes so why the double charge?.

taxiphil wrote:

The natural progression of your argument is that we should completely do away with free healthcare altogether ...

You misunderstood my post, I was trying to show that we already have a two-tier system whereby things you'd expect to be free are in fact charged (specs and drugs) and yet something we usually expect to pay for in town (carparking), we want to be provided for free!. I thought it was a twisted logic - so rather than advocating US style charging and stuff the poor, I was really trying to show that we've not got the mix right at the moment. I think cancer patients should get drugs for free - but as you point out, they already are having to pay for them to survive. Damn tragic really.

taxiphil wrote:

I see your point here, but this problem could be overcome by having a system of car parking passes issued by the hospital reception, or to have a charge which is refunded at the hospital reception, similar to the system run by supermarkets in city centres to stop non-customers abusing their car parks.

Totally agree, this would work for relatively little cost.

taxiphil wrote:

Well, no. The alternative is for the NHS to be run more efficiently by the government, instead of wasting £100s of millions on lining the pockets of greedy equity firms who are now owning and running our NHS hospitals under the Private Finance Initiative and putting unbearable financial burdens on the NHS Trusts. There's just been a Dispatches programme on Channel 4 about the appalling deal the taxpayer is getting under these schemes. Did you know, for example, that the firms that own and run the hospitals charge the NHS Trust £200 to hang a mirror and £420 to fit a light switch? And believe me, that's just the tip of the iceberg. The stranglehold of the private investors, combined with the woeful mismanagement and inefficiency of the Department of Health, means the taxpayer is getting a worse deal than ever before, and that is why NHS Trusts are looking to claw back even more money with things like car parking.

As a tax accountant, I've seen many PFI schemes and to be honest this needs a totally new thread to debate. I wouldn't believe everything you watch on Channel 4. The majority of hospitals that charge are not infact PFI schemes and as such means the hospital is directly funded by the Health Authority which in turn is funded by the Government. If a hospital has to charge for parking then the buck stops with Tony B, not the hospital managers or 'greedy fat cats'. More and more schools are being built under PFI and yet they don't charge for parking (as yet). I guess it's down to what the market can tolerate maybe?.

It is true that PFI hospitals also charge for parking and in that context the money IS going to corporate equity share holders. PFI's are a complex and little understood concept and are either good/bad depending upon your view on public services. In simple terms the Health Authority 'rent' the hospital off a private firm. All the costs for maintenance, gas, electric, etc are all pre-determined in the 'contract' as are specific targets for achievement such as no. of operations, etc. So the Health Authority know exactly what they are paying for, before any hospital is built. Even if the PFI charge £400 for a light bulb, it will have already been agreed in the contract and factored into the costs of the total project which is then reflected in the monthly 'rental' the Health Authority pay. Some PFI schemes can cost £35-50 million per month - but that's an 'all in' cost. I'm not saying they're good by a longway, just that the Government no longers gives capital money of size to HA's to build new hospitals so there is little alternative than to go the PFI route.

taxiphil wrote:

Most people are lucky enough not to have to attend hospital regularly. But the morality debate here is about people with serious illnesses, isn't it? I doubt they'll be comforted by the fact that they're being hit in the wallet because they were unlucky enough to become ill. Not to forget the underpaid nurses who also have to pay for parking on a daily basis.

I'd say that if you are seriously ill, then being hit in the wallet is the least of your problems. As for nurses paying, again, you could take the stance that mosst other workers have to pay to park (certainly in London and big towns). I currently work in an office that has it's own arking but I've worked in other places where I've had to pay as no private carpark was available. Do the public really want to subsidise nurses with free car parking. Surely, we'd want our taxes being spent on treatment of patients?.

However, despite that, I agree with you that it is terrible that nurses have to pay to park - and in some trusts they don't even guarantee a parking space!. I guess most hospitals have a lack of land for parking and so the rules of supply/demand come into play.

Deep down Taxiphil, I and probably everyone else are in agreement about carparking charges at hospitals and that they should be scrapped - I guess I'm just trying to stimulate debate on the subject.

pickledtink

dmg24 wrote:

Not all hospital car parks are run by private parking companies. Some are, some are run by the Trust in question.



Wrong. My local hospital will consider any appeal on parking charges on a case by case basis. Where, for instance, somebody is attending on a near daily basis for medical treatment, their parking charges will be refunded. Where someone is attending for a one off appointment or visit, the charges will not be refunded.



As stated above, appeals are considered on a case by case basis, according to users needs.

Most hospital car parks offer hourly, daily, weekly and monthly tickets.



I'm very sorry that your neighbour died, but do you not feel rather foolish saying that the fact that you had to pay to park meant that you did not visit her as much as you could have?!

If you are going to make generalised statements as you have, then please get your facts correct first.

Obviously you can easily afford such charges. Please try to remember that not everyone is as fortunate.
Also why not ensure that all hospitals do in fact have the same policy as your local hospital before wading in making self satisfied comments? My local hospital does not do any of those things you list so smugly. It's pay up or be clamped.
So no I do not feel foolish.
As to your reference to my friend and neighbour: Your comments are beneath contempt.
Perhaps you should think before you post such crass repulsive remarks.

adm_4

Surprised not more are against these charges! I took my son to the out of hours GP in the hospital last night (he's fine!) and for my short 30 minute stay it cost £1.50 (for 2 hours)! That was the minimum fee and applied at all hours! In the centre of Bristol you can get all night tickets for less! And in the office parts its free and 6pm and Sundays. Our hospital is in a housing area no where near shops. If I didn't have a sick 1 year old with me I'd have parked for free on the road outside.
Extra moan: paying for TV/phone within hospitals (contracted out of course). You used to be able to phone wards directly but now you're told to use the bedside phone that's an expensive (0870?) number.

pickledtink

Voyager2002 wrote:

If their income was that low, they would not have a car anyway. Anyone who objects to paying the cost of parking can just come by bicycle, or take the bus.

(Obviously, delivering patients in urgent need of treatment is a different matter.)

Obviously you don't live in the real world then. Public transport is virtually non existent out of large towns and cities and costs an absolute fortune.

My local hospital is miles out of town and about 7 miles up a hill. No problem for mothers with a few young children, frail elderly people, disabled, asthmatics, those with heart problems etc to just pop up there on their bike then.
It must be said though that your local hospital has served you well. The lobotomy was clearly a complete success.

pickledtink

'As a tax accountant, ' says JasonLVC.

So on a nice comfy salary then Jason? You might change your stance on this if your nearest and dearest were suffering and alone in hospital whilst you couldn't lay your hands on the bus fare to get there and give them some love and care.
Your sanctimonious remarks are insulting to those who genuinly go without basic needs to be there for their loved ones in times of terrible need and distress.

inkie

OK then get this - I am a minister, therefore spend a lot of time visiting the hospitals to see sick people. When i moved to the area, on the first visit I enquired to see if i could have a permit which would allow me to use the (reduced) staff carpark, as I had spent over one hour trying to find somehwere to park. I was told by Mr Jobsworth aka the parking attendant that no, I would have to use the public car park, and that i would have tompay the going rate and claim it back of the church. 'Well actually, the trust has a duty to meet any spiritual needs of patients (I was a nurse/midwife before coming into ministry)" So what ? was his answer. So now i refuse to pay - I turn up, park up in the first free spot I see and put a note in the window saying minister of religion on call. If for any reason they clamped me, then revenge time, I have a clamp too, in the boot of my car and would clamp their car parking van, and not remove mine until they removed theirs. Sorted!

nenya

i have to say where i live now is very close to the hospital - so thankfully i haven't had may times i have needed to visit i have walked and although i do understand the car parking 'problem'. However, i can't help but think - for people who are visiting regularly - why not get the bus??

In most towns i have lived in a bus service runs to the hospital - it's cheaper than parking and sometimes more efficent then trying to get though the traffic and fight with 7 other driver for that last parking space. I understand that this isn't always an option, but for those who can do it, it is cheaper. A few years ago my mum was hospitilzed and we would drive over to Bath - park up in one of the free areas in town - then catch the bus the rest of the way.

But for emergencys there should be some sort of scheme, because when you loved one is bleeding half to death, the last thing you are going to think of is money for car parking.