Looking for costing advice on renovation of a house

DSM

Hi All,

I am a FTB and am considering putting in an offer for a house which I have viewed recently. Brief background is its a small three bed semi in a very industrial northern town in West Yorkshire. The house is listed at mid £90k with livable ones worth around £100-105k by my reckoning. To cut to the chase, the internals are in a right state and the whole house would need a complete overhaul from top to bottom. Externally, the house looks fairly sound and the roof looks good (at least from street level). Now in its current state hell will freeze over before they get anywhere near what they are asking. When viewing the agent suggested that an initial offer if "serious" should probably be pitched around £60k and move up from there. The house has been on the market for 2 years + and is being sold due to the elderly occupant moving into a care home. Viewings have been few and far between and due to the work required, the agent was honest enough to say that most people take one look and run for the hills although the agent was more professional and worded it in a much nicer way;)

I fully realise that this is quite a "how longs a piece of string" type query but I'm just looking for some indication from people who have experience of gutting houses and renovating from top to bottom. I'm actually relishing the challenge and have friends and family who would also be willing to muck in too. This will be the first time I've attempted anything like this but I would like to add I'm quite handy with my hands and wouldn't shirk at the challenge (I'm an engineer by trade and like a hands on approach) although as my father keeps telling me "plasterings an art and you'll have to get someone in to do that or it'll look a mess!". The added benefit is that everything can be done to my taste too.

Things that won't need doing are windows as these have recently been replaced with plastic and the house appears to have just been rewired. From what I could see of the flooring, it appears ok but will have to come up for fitting central heating.

Everything else will need to be addressed. I've listed the things I can think of below.

ALL walls and ceilings stripped and replastered.
New complete kitchen
New complete Bathroom
Carpets/flooring throughout
Livingroom/dining (combined) redecoration inc new fire/fireplace
Hallway redocoration (bannister & stairs salvagable)
Double Bedroom 1 redecoration throughout
Double Bedroom 2 redecoration throughout
Box Bedroom redecoration throughout
Relocation of central heating boiler from upstairs bedroom to downstairs
Internal and external doors and frames
Externally, Garden needs reworking but I would be more than happy to do this "as and when" as this is something I would be very comfortable doing and the only major expense will be time not cost.

As mentioned, I would be looking to do most of this myself with the help of friends and family. I have a cousin who would be more than happy to help with any electrics as he is a sparky. My dad was a gas fitter for many years and although not physically able to do the donkey work (that will be my job!) the knowledge is there to assist with central heating relocation. Joinery I'll do myself and am personally comfortable with this. As for painting and decorating.....thats the easy bit!

Consideration for furniture, white goods etc. will then be required.

This leads to my main query. How much do you think this lot will cost me. I don't want the best of everything. Just a good quality modern finish throughout.

I'm thinking conservatively that £25k-£30K should cover everything but this is where my lack of experience may bite me on the bum and as my old lecturer used to say assumption is the mother...........

Based on this an initail "cheeky" offer of low £60k with a max of £70k-£75k should be the target. If the vendor is realistic that is what it is worth in the current market as despite all the headlines, house prices round here are falling fairly consistantly from my anecdotal experience (at least the ones in my price bracket i have been monitoring) regardless of what The Halifax says:D

I might also add this isn't an investment to make a quick buck. I intend to live in the property for several years to enjoy all the hard work which will have gone into it so it has to be nice:).

As mentioned above I know how open ended these types of questions are however I would really appreciate any advice you have on budget costs from your previous experiences. Any comments are welcome.

Thanks for reading.

DSM

Just realised how long the post is. Sorry for that and please don't let it put you off reading. I just wanted to cover as much as I could.

marcg

Just costed a full refurb of a 3 bed 30s terraced in Bristol (so more expensive labour) and total cost £41k including fancy kitchen @9k units and appliances supply only. So if you assumed a budget kitchen @£4k, that means £36k and if you take out the southern price differential, more like £32k and then you are looking to do a lot of labour yourself/friends so yes £25-30 sounds reasonable.

In terms of the offer to make - formula is market value=(acquisition cost + fees + tax + refurb costs) x min 1.2 (20% profit)

Sounds like a lot of profit but trust me, your only competition is small builders with nothing to do. And they will be using the same formula.

kmmr

I think there is a rule of thumb of about £500-700 per square metre. Bit cheaper if you do it yourself, but I find it tends to be quite accurate no matter what you do!

Especially as you need to consider the things you do not yet know, and there are always some lurking. Sure you don't need new electrics? And a boiler?

Tight margins in these lower value houses... but certainly do-able.

Entertainer

marcg wrote: »

Just costed a full refurb of a 3 bed 30s terraced in Bristol (so more expensive labour) and total cost £41k including fancy kitchen @9k units and appliances supply only. So if you assumed a budget kitchen @£4k, that means £36k and if you take out the southern price differential, more like £32k and then you are looking to do a lot of labour yourself/friends so yes £25-30 sounds reasonable.

In terms of the offer to make - formula is market value=(acquisition cost + fees + tax + refurb costs) x min 1.2 (20% profit)

Sounds like a lot of profit but trust me, your only competition is small builders with nothing to do. And they will be using the same formula.

That's interesting. Are 20% profits still realistic for a standard refurb job? All the properties I've looked at on the open market and at auctions it seems like 10% is pushing it frankly. Would be interested to know other people's experiences.

You say the only competition is from small builders, but isn't there also competition from amateur "developers" who've watched alot of episodes of Property Ladder and/or Homes Under the Hammer?

truman_sparks

Not sure where your getting above 15k really?

You have no major building work only a relocation of a boiler and fireplace work and fire (£1000 upto £4000 if fitting full new ch) flooring/carpets(1k-3k) plus a kitchen and bathroom (How much are you thinking on these, 6 and 3 ?), so the other costs are for materials. If indeed you are planning on doing the work yourself! the obvious is that the costs add up with each job you get a pro into do, plastering, tiling flooring etc, i dont see more than 3k in general materials so labour is your biggest cost.
I reckon you could bring it in for 10k truly doing it yourself using lower end materials (if not fitting full central heating and upto 20k for a premium finish.but think 15k is a reasonable target with 4-5k contingency.

why not post your job list and your estimates along side, obviously if you know your planing a 10k kitchen and 5k bathroom then it will alter peoples guesstimates.

safe

I can't see this coming in at more than 15k if you're doing the work yourself. I'll have spent less than that doing far more work. We have not had to employ any trades and have had all tools available to us at no cost though. The problem is the house has taken us since August to work on and won’t be finished for another couple of weeks. It's taken many many hours to do up and we have had no free time. I guess if you add on Mortgage fees it might be above the 15k but certainly less than 20k. We'd have been in after 2 months if we could get a full time team of professionals in!

marcg

Entertainer wrote: »

That's interesting. Are 20% profits still realistic for a standard refurb job? All the properties I've looked at on the open market and at auctions it seems like 10% is pushing it frankly. Would be interested to know other people's experiences.

You say the only competition is from small builders, but isn't there also competition from amateur "developers" who've watched alot of episodes of Property Ladder and/or Homes Under the Hammer?

Operating profit should be 20-30%. If you're breaking your back for only 10% you're not doing it right - 10% could easily become 5% on a small job and then you might as well leave the money in the bank.

Amateur developers don't generally have access to finance anymore. And the cash-rich ones are generally scared out of the market. The remainder are professionals.