Carers On Call - Pay or no pay? Also rest periods...! A few issues then!

Singy

Hi All,

I work as a domiciliary carer and the hours we can work is from 7am through to 10pm.

The hours we receive can vary, which is a pain but not really the problem - I'm not overworked and could take on more, but due to the lack of organisation (a lot to do with the nature of the work) the hours I do work are all over the place and tend to be early starts combined with late finishes which is leaving me, and everyone I work with exhausted.

We were recently asked to specify our hours of availability, which I have from 7am to 7pm as I was very tired of being expected to work until 10pm to start again at 7am the next morning for several days in a row.

My first question is that if employers are required by law to give 11 hours rest break between one day and the next are they breaking the law by not giving us this, even if it been noted down in our contracts as 'considered waived' by the employee? Can they do this?

Also, my employer has said that we are expected to be available within the times we have specified, but we are not being paid for being on call, just the appointments that we go to even though we can't do anything with our time.

There are restrictions on our lives due to this, we cannot leave the town, we are expected to be ready to go. Does this mean that they have to pay us?

Being on call isn't specified in our contracts but it is specified that we can refuse an appointment, my employer is giving very mixed messages here.

And if they don't want to pay us is there a minimum notice period they must provide when they tell us that we must go to an appointment if it's within our specified time?

Any advice would be gratefully received! I love my job but it's killing me in terms of lack of sleep, stress and is slowly killing any social life I once had!

Thanks

cat_lady_4

Oh dear!
I'm no expert on employment but have worked as a carer so have lots of sympathy!
Do you have a number of contracted hours/ or are you employed on a bank/ agency/ relief type basis where you are allocated the work as and when?
The rest break period i'm not sure about,perhaps check with the direct gov website.
If your do not have a contracted number of hours you dont have to accept any appointments you dont want, and they can't make you do on call duties unpaid either. You will need to be firm with the company, they will try it on with you, but if they cannot provide planned, rotaed clients then they cannot expect you to hanging on in case an appointment comes along at the last minute. If you are contracted for a number of hours, then i suggest that since they are asking you for your availability you shrink it down either further, say from 7-3. That should limit the time you are hanging around. they can always ask in advance if work outside those hours come along.
I dont really get the bit about minimum notice period, but might be about to help if you told us what kind of contract you have.

Singy

Hi Cat Lady - thanks very much for the reply and the sympathy! I take it you don't do that any more then eh? I'm very close to that point myself!

I don't have contracted hours and am working full time on a permanent basis not on bank/agency or relief.

Have checked the rest break period with direct gov and they say that it is law that you are entitled to an 11 hour rest break - but I know that the law can be a little odd with different occupations with different working/shift patterns so was wondering if this was any different.

The problem is that if I reduce my hours further I risk not getting enough of a salary to live on as my availability is currently 7am til 7pm and I'm getting on average 30 hours a week, although I would like more as this still isn't giving me much leeway in terms of much money past paying the bills.

It probably seems ridiculous that I'm complaining given that I would like more hours, but because the way that they're spaced means that I'm at work very early to very late so I'm always tired and can't fit in anything else as a second income nevermind have much of a life outside of work!

I read somewhere re on call that they can give you a notice period when on call, ie, you must meet the appointment within 2 hours before they have to start paying you an on call amount. Not sure if this would apply or how much time they should be giving?!

Interesting to know that they can't make you go to appointments if you don't have set hours, didn't realise that and there's currently quite a lot of pressure to go if you're asked.

The stress of the pressure and the tiredness is doing my head in and I'm very close to leaving, even though I'm just about to start an NVQ which would give me something to get a better job.

jhe

you well and truly have my sympathy.i have just left my job because of the same problems. it was stressed with us we had to be available to work.but employer refused to put it in writing,they would only put in writing i was expected to be available! what i do know is if you are on call you should be paid the hourly minimum wage whilst on call,and your normal hourly rate when actually working. from what i understand and i may be wrong the overnight breaks are a little complicated, it depends if you get 2 days off on the trot within certain amount of weeks.all i can say is i am relieved to be out of it.

cat_lady_4

The rest break has always been a bit contentious, it is quite common in care work to finish a 9pm and be back at 7am, but the profession isnt above the law so maybe somebody will have better advice!
So your contract doesnt state that you will be guarenteed 3 hours, but rather this is a typical amount of hours you will be offered. Do you submit a timesheet weekly or monthly to claim for your hours? You may well be considered an 'worker' rather than an employee. Your rights and responsibilities are slightly different in that case.
The on-call thing prob from company to company, but yours isnt specified in your contract or job description. You therefore are not on-call although your company may offer you work (appointments) but if you do not wish to attend then they will either have to find someone else or go themselves. Do you see the same clients regularly? i would have thought your employers should be able to design a rota which gives you some advance notice of when you work.
Good luck with it! I juggle lots of work and sometimes work for a care agency and i find this works well for me as i can say yay or nay to the shifts they offer me! there are some good ones out there !

TM1976

See below:


My first question is that if employers are required by law to give 11 hours rest break between one day and the next are they breaking the law by not giving us this, even if it been noted down in our contracts as 'considered waived' by the employee? Can they do this?

This won't apply because you are not working a continous shift so you will have sufficient rest time even if it is at inconvenient times.

Also, my employer has said that we are expected to be available within the times we have specified, but we are not being paid for being on call, just the appointments that we go to even though we can't do anything with our time.

If it's not in your terms you aren't entitled to anything through employment law.

There are restrictions on our lives due to this, we cannot leave the town, we are expected to be ready to go. Does this mean that they have to pay us?

No, so above.

Being on call isn't specified in our contracts but it is specified that we can refuse an appointment, my employer is giving very mixed messages here.

If your employer doesn't give you specified hours (or pay you an on call rate) then you should be able to refuse shifts. Whether you want to depends on how much you want to keep them happy.

And if they don't want to pay us is there a minimum notice period they must provide when they tell us that we must go to an appointment if it's within our specified time?

No, see above, but they might reasonably expect you to be available in the timeframe you had told them.

jhe

i worked for local authority so maybe different, but i was advised by legal team if i was on call whatever employer tried to tell me, i should be paid for it, hence the reason they wouldnt put in writing,but probably like op i was constantly under pressure to be available. if i worked 6 hours or more i should have been given a 20 min paid break this never happened either.in my case i worked 15 contracted hours on call for 40 hours.expected to be available 7am-11pm 7 days to take phone calls work related.as cat lady says work is available through agencys and direct payments without the pressures op is under now.

Singy

Hey guys - thanks very much for your opinions and advice - much appreciated! Its reassuring to know that others have been in the profession and have had similar experiences.

As far as I can gather then, because it's not in our terms we aren't entitled to an on-call payment but nor can we be made to go out to appointments we don't want to accept.

The rest breaks don't apply to us because we are given others during the day (even though we can't go to sleep to catch up - great!!).

We do get a rota a week in advance but this is always changed in terms of clients added on or clients taken off, and we're pretty pressured to take them when offered. If they've put me on a very early and very late and I try and hand work back to them because of this its made very difficult even though according to my contract I'm entitled to do so.

Essentially it seems that it comes down to how much I can put up with and how much I want to keep them happy. I am trying to be reasonable and am generally available during the timeframe I've given, but it's getting increasingly difficult to put up with the pressure to work stupid hours and constantly having to go back to hand work back when ironically really I want more hours just in a reasonable time frame! Argh!

Thanks everyone!

Singy

Sorry - a quick one following this! At weekends I am often working 7am through to 10pm - surely after this shift I would be entitled to an 11 hour rest period as my breaks are not covered in the day? Generally I would be lucky to get an hours break during the day.

?

jhe

hi singy. do you work for the private sector?they are notorious for long hours with no travel between calls etc in the area i worked.i used to think i had a bad deal but their working conditions were a lot worse. if you are a union member the union will explain your working rights to you.

Singy

Hiya Jhe - yep I work for the private sector, we tend to get 5 mins between calls which can lead to some creative driving, and I've heard it is pretty standard.

The Union? Hindsight is a great thing isn't it..! lol

Well, I've started the job hunt. The people organising it don't have a good end of the deal either really, they're trying to make sure everyone gets the care they need and have to deal with a lot of appointment refusals, sick leave, holiday and anything else and they are understaffed. It's common opinion that they need more people in the office but it hasn't happened and currently it's chaotic.

Unfortunately this means the carers are pressured to work longer and earlier, and fill in at short notice which ultimately will leave to a higher staff turnover and it'll exacerbate the situation they're currently in.

Onwards and upwards.