Tories claims single pensioners are £110 worse off after Budget

Spartacus_Mills

lemonjelly wrote: »

Statement without any evidence for what provision either had made, or how one can to have £150k, & whether or not the other has any illness, disability or similar...

Sorry, I made the mistake of taking your comments on face value.

lemonjelly wrote: »

So all people on benefits are "!!!!less"?

Some certainly are. People who have worked and not made provision for themselves and then claim benefits are !!!!less in my opinion.

lemonjelly wrote: »

No he is not. He has the means to support himself without relying on state intervention. Surely this is something everyone should aspire to, with state intervention being a recourse of last resort, thus cutting everyones tax burden & preserving resources for when & where they are most needed.

Of course it is something to aspire to, the point I am making is by doing it he can be seen to be being punished. He certainly feels that way.

lemonjelly wrote: »

I haven't commented anywhere on you managing your personal finances. I pointed out that if everyone who could look after their own affairs still drew out from the state pot we'd have an even bigger deficit than we currently have. My statements aren't about obscure conclusions, I have made statements about factual experiences based on my employment & work I have successfully done. This riposte is clearly pointing out that it is you who have jumped to specific conclusions which fit your narrow minded world view (all benefit claimants are scum copyright the white horse & spartacus mills)

White Horse may have said that, I have not.

lemonjelly wrote: »

Yes. And he has also drawn out of the system at exceptional cost too. This is all in addition to his use of public facilities such as roads, parks, health services, & associated local government & national government schemes. All in all, it has balanced out in his favour I'd argue.

PS, the neighbour, who gets his council tax paid had his leg blown off whilst in the forces. Despite this, he continues to work, though is entitled to an exemption in his council tax.

But let us not allow facts to get in the way...

Well you haven't as you keep on dripping them out, well we only have your word for it that it is true. Personally I am not sure you are being completely truthful. I think you are making it up as you go along.

ninky_2

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

Personally I am not sure you are being completely truthful. I think you are making it up as you go along.

evidence of a lost argument there.

Spartacus_Mills

ninky wrote: »

evidence of a lost argument there.

Oh dear, our resident labour bunkerbot has woken up.

I will spell it out very simply for you.

There is no argument to win or lose. It is an exchange of opposing views and the argument is hardly likely to be won or lost among the 20 or so diehards who post here. There is no silver bullet, there is no killer point, it is not a black and white issue.

I am happy with my view and Lemoncurry will not convince me otherwise as I am sure he/she is happy with theirs.

However when Lemoncurry keeps on dropping in new bits of information into the discussion it is right for me to question whether or not it is factual.

StevieJ

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

ssue.

I am happy with my view and Lemoncurry will not convince me otherwise as I am sure he/she is happy with theirs.

However when Lemoncurry keeps on dropping in new bits of information into the discussion it is right for me to question whether or not it is factual.

So if I could summarise your view it would be the Tory faithful are desperate to see the deficit cut as long as is doesn't affect them. Would that be accurate?

The_White_Horse

lemonjelly wrote: »

The "entitled to" brigade covers all ages in society. A welfare system is supposed to help those in genuine need, not those who have the means to support themselves!

Really makes me :mad:

but you have to ask why some need it, and some have a nest egg. if the person with the nest egg has worked hard, and saved, going without stuff to save for the future - why should they be punished???

Surely the best way to check these things is have some kind of average wage throughout the life. therefore, if two people have earned 1,050,000 over a life time (30k per year for 35 years) and one has savings of 150k and the other nothing, questions need to be asked why. Ok, some may have had children, whatever, an allowance can be given for each child etc.

The point is, many have nothing in old age purely because instead of paying into a pension, they chose to spend 2k a year going down the costa brava. they should be the ones to starve/freeze. If you make the saver pay, then the non-saver should get NOTHING.

Or you pay for both. but you don't (unless you are a lefty) make the saver pay and then pay the wasters costs for them. Where is the incentive to save??????? but then, under the lefty, where is the incentive to work?????

stupid hateful profligate encouraging lefty morons!! I hate LEFTIES!!!

Spartacus_Mills

StevieJ wrote: »

So if I could summarise your view it would be the Tory faithful are desperate to see the deficit cut as long as is doesn't affect them. Would that be accurate?

My view is that applies for all of us. It is not just a Tory thing.

My point is, in this thread, the Tories are playing to their core vote. No different to Labour or the Lib Dems and for the Tories to shore their core vote and appeal to waverers in that core demographic is smart especially given the slump in their support over the last 12 months (the last few days polls notwithstanding).

Rather like tax rises. People are happy to see them as long as they are not personally affected which is why the top rate 50% and bankers bonus tax were widely popular (unless you earn £150K PA or are a banker with a large bonus).

mitchaa

We are all going to be worse off this year as the government have not increased the personal allowance rate nor have they increased the higher rate tax threshold.

Im not quite sure why this is a story? Its not a tory claim, it's factual.

What is the fuss about? This is labours doing, not tory.

lemonjelly

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

Sorry, I made the mistake of taking your comments on face value.

Fair enough. But it pays to be careful about jumping to conclusions...

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

Some certainly are. People who have worked and not made provision for themselves and then claim benefits are !!!!less in my opinion..

In theory I see why you say this. However I see this as a bit of an oversimplification. Hence my initially giving you an outline of the circumstances, rather than the lot all in 1 go.

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

Of course it is something to aspire to, the point I am making is by doing it he can be seen to be being punished. He certainly feels that way.

Because he feels that way doesn't make it right. My arguement is that a genuine welfare state is limited in resources, & any resonable person would be aware of this, & if they had £150k would not be looking elsewhere for support with a council tax bill.

A reasonable person would, imo, pay the council tax bill & count their blessings.

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

White Horse may have said that, I have not. .

But it is about how you come across.

Spartacus_Mills wrote: »

Well you haven't as you keep on dripping them out, well we only have your word for it that it is true. Personally I am not sure you are being completely truthful. I think you are making it up as you go along.

You are entitled to that opinion. I assure you that the info I have given is 100% factually correct.

However a wider point I'd like to make, is that I am concerned about this being personalized. The issue I have is with the point made by the conservatives, and re-enforced by yourself. I don't have any personal issue with you, & am more than happy to debate healthily, discussing the facts & contexts of the implications of the conservatives statements.

Like I say, I have no personal gripe with you, so I don't understand why there is a need to introduce personal insults. I don't come here to trade insults or mislead anyone.

Pennywise

lemonjelly wrote: »

One last thing, the guy with over £150k had recently recieved 3 years of phenomenally expensive NHS treatment (costing circa 3x his savings), so effectively he did recieve from the system. As had his children, educated at local schools. And so on...

Which he would have got had he never worked and lived a scroungers life on the dole. That's the problem that needs addressing. There has to be some form of "reward" for working and planning to look after yourself. At the moment, the only rewards are for the idle and !!!!less.

Pennywise

StevieJ wrote: »

So if I could summarise your view it would be the Tory faithful are desperate to see the deficit cut as long as is doesn't affect them. Would that be accurate?

No, I want EVERYONE to be proportionally hit to not only cut the deficit but to start repaying the debt as well.

That means across the board tax rises and across the board spending cuts.

Not just hitting the poor sods who happen to be unlucky enough to have to work.

How does the NIC rise affect the unemployed or pensioners?

We're in this together and that means EVERYONE has to suffer - that's fairness in action.