can my landlord demand back rent off me if I don't have a contract?

insurgente

Hey all,

I've had quite a weird situation with my housing for a while....which had been good, but I think it may be coming around to the time where it bites me in the ar*e...

Basically I moved into a house where there were already others living. I asked about getting a contract and everything...the landlord provided me with banking details of where to pay in the rent. I said I'd set it up once I'd got the contract (so everything would be above board and I'd be protected)... he said he'd bring it round the following weekend. Something came up and he couldn't....

Then I didn't hear from him for several months! So basically I'd never been paying any rent, and he seemed oblivious. I thought this situation couldn't possibly continue long so didn't do anything stupid like spend my rent money.

My other housemates had gone through a letting agency to get rooms in this house, but the company went bankrupt and disappeared with their deposits, never to be heard of again. Because of this I said I'd deal with the landlord directly. I don't know if he has so many properties he doesnt know who lives where, if he's not too well organised or what.... but he genuinely doesnt seem to know who lives in our house.

So I get a call from him the other day thinking..."oh no...this is it....game over". But he still doesnt seem to know if I have or not; he's asking about references and that, assuming I'd paid it because I'm a nice lad. I didn't have the balls to say "uhhh I haven't paid you for 6 months"

So essentially it's coming down to the wire....he's going to realise I haven't paid. The thing is, I owe him A LOT of money..... I have most of it, but paying it all in one go would put me severely in my overdraft.... I've been struggling for employment, and have other people to support........ He's a nice guy; a good landlord who gets things done (eventually) so don't want to rip him off. But at the same time, I don't have the money, and what I do have needs to go to other people

I'm tempted to just disappear.

What I'm wondering is.... As I don't have a contract, can he legally demand this money off me? would it be worth his time to chase me around? I don't want to be a w*nker who runs off on his debts...but my money situation leaves me a bit desperate

any tips greatly appreciated!

rsykes2000

insurgente wrote: »

He's a nice guy; a good landlord who gets things done (eventually) so don't want to rip him off.

I'm tempted to just disappear.

Thse statements are completely contradictory. Man up and pay what you owe.

princeofpounds

I opened this thread thinking that I was going to have to tell someone that you do have a contract even if there isn't a written one, but as there has been no consideration paid over (like rent) then I think you are right, you actually don't yet have a contract. That does however mean that you have no rights of occupation, so your housemates could just lock the doors on you whenever they liked.

Ethically you should be paying the guy - he may be a bit disorganised but seems like a decent person. But you might well be able to escape obligations in this instance. However, bear in mind that if he does take you to court, you WILL have to appear or lose by default, and judges are not stupid. If they think you are taking the mickey on a technicality they can find ways to make you pay.

N79

What an incompetant LL.

Morally you clearly owe him the money. Legally the situation is a mess but I am sure a court would agree that you owe him money.

Normally, a tenancy is created by the payment of rent in return for the occupation of a building, irrespective of whether a paper contract exists. Clearly that has not happened here. But equally clearly there was no intention of you living rent free.

In such a situation a court is likely to try to determine what the parties intended and are likely to strive to avoid an absurdity (in this case that would be your LL giving you a free place to live). In this instance I am sure that the courts will decide that a stututory AST exists and has existed. They will set the rent based on your and your LL's recollections of the amount agreed (unless there is something in writing) but obviously if you lie to the court you may well end up in gaol. A court would almost certainly allow you to agree a payment plan for the outstanding rent that would allow you to pay it at a rate you can afford (although you state that you have the rent saved so this may not be applicable).

If you "just disappear" then to use your own words, you are a !!!!!! who runs off on his debts.

Fire_Fox

insurgente wrote: »

So essentially it's coming down to the wire....he's going to realise I haven't paid. The thing is, I owe him A LOT of money..... I have most of it, but paying it all in one go would put me severely in my overdraft.... I've been struggling for employment, and have other people to support........ He's a nice guy; a good landlord who gets things done (eventually) so don't want to rip him off. But at the same time, I don't have the money, and what I do have needs to go to other people

I'm tempted to just disappear.

What I'm wondering is.... As I don't have a contract, can he legally demand this money off me? would it be worth his time to chase me around? I don't want to be a w*nker who runs off on his debts...but my money situation leaves me a bit desperate

any tips greatly appreciated!

If you are struggling for employment then you should be claiming benefits - JSA, CTB and LHA. That is sufficient to live on if you are in a shared house. You would of course need a contract to claim LHA which is why you should have addressed this at an earlier stage. Not having the money is not an excuse not to pay what you owe, if the landlord successfully takes you to court he can still get a CCJ which means you may get costs awarded against you and you will have your credit file marked for at least six years.

It is unclear who these 'other people' are that you need to give money to, but actually you don't. All the debt charities are quite clear that housing is your priority debt, plus food and council tax. The money you are mentally allocating to these other people is not yours to give away, you should already have given it to your landlord. The obvious thing to do is pay as much as you can and then pay the remainder by installments.

The letting agency has NOT gone bankrupt with the other tenants deposits, the law is quite clear that the landlord has the responsibility for the safe return of their money. This is of course providing the house is returned to the landlord in good condition. Your housemates need to write a recorded delivery letter to the landlord serving their notice to quit (usually one month from a rent day), asking to attend checkout and asking for their deposit to be returned promptly. If he fails to do so a second recorded delivery letter precedes small claims action.

princeofpounds

N79 makes a useful point - courts can use evidence of the intention of the parties through their actions to determine if a contract was meant to be in existence, not just the physical existence of a contact.

I would suggest that you still probably have a defence given you have made no steps towards paying at any point, but you would have to lie to the court to make it and that's a risk, especially if any of the other tenants testify against you.

G_M

If you plan/want to stay then speak to the LL. Explain you're still waiting for your contract. If/when he asks for 6 months rent explain you can't pay it all in one go, give as much as you can and pay the rest in installments (as N79 explains that's what a court would order).

Then enjoy living in a place with amenable housemates and a friendly, helpful, if somewhat disorganised LL!

You were right though to insist on a contract. Since he IS disorganised, continue to insist (in a friendly way) on doing it properly: receipts for your rent/deposit; deposit in a regulated scheme; etc

and when repairs are needed, drop him a polite note so it's in writing.

N79

princeofpounds wrote: »

N79 makes a useful point - courts can use evidence of the intention of the parties through their actions to determine if a contract was meant to be in existence, not just the physical existence of a contact.

I would suggest that you still probably have a defence given you have made no steps towards paying at any point, but you would have to lie to the court to make it and that's a risk, especially if any of the other tenants testify against you.

Unfortunately a defence which requires one to perjure oneself (and therefore risk going to prison if caught) is not really much of a defence at all. I agree though that this one could go either way.

insurgente

Thanks all. I appreciate the honesty. Maybe this is what I need to hear

That does however mean that you have no rights of occupation, so your housemates could just lock the doors on you whenever they liked.

that's why I initially said I'd pay once I got a contract.... On the off chance the landlord kicked me out or something.

Thing is, he doesn't even seem to have my phone number (which is weird as I've called/texted him before). He called my housemate to get in contact with me. He doesn't have any other address for me either..... however, my name is quite unique so it wouldn't be too hard to track down a relative if he put his mind to it.

In this instance I am sure that the courts will decide that a stututory AST exists and has existed. They will set the rent based on your and your LL's recollections of the amount agreed (unless there is something in writing)

His last e-mail asked me to confirm to him details like time, date, and cost of rent I'd paid in?! Like he doesnt even know how much my rent should be....... A new housemate just moved into our empty room and he wasn't too fussed about it; didnt even seem to know how much that rent should be! weird...

payment plan for the outstanding rent that would allow you to pay it at a rate you can afford (although you state that you have the rent saved so this may not be applicable).

most but not all.... if i paid it all i'd be quite heavily into an overdraft that needs to be paid back by june

so yes, strange....a theory was that maybe he's looking after the houses for someone else, this is why he's so laid back.

If a landlord decided to evict me....does he evict me AND demand the money owed?

If you are struggling for employment then you should be claiming benefits - JSA, CTB and LHA

I was on JSA initially... but couldnt get housing benefit as I had no contract (however, as I wasn't paying rent it balanced out). Then I decided it'd be better to scrimp by on minimum wage (in London) so signed off of JSA..... It's only now that I've got a half-decent job (which may end at the end of April) so I doubt I'm eligible for any benefits.

I don't know what debt charities say but in my mind the people I need to support have to come before landlord who owns masses of property... But I'm trying to keep everyone happy. Could do without any more court cases hanging over me!

Then enjoy living in a place with amenable housemates and a friendly, helpful, if somewhat disorganised LL!

yea that's it.... maybe it's time to man up, debt down and keep living in a half-decent place

N79

insurgente wrote: »

If a landlord decided to evict me....does he evict me AND demand the money owed?

Yes the LL would get a court order for the outstanding rent if the eviction was for arrears.

Fire_Fox

insurgente wrote: »

Thing is, he doesn't even seem to have my phone number (which is weird as I've called/texted him before). He called my housemate to get in contact with me. He doesn't have any other address for me either..... however, my name is quite unique so it wouldn't be too hard to track down a relative if he put his mind to it.

I was on JSA initially... but couldnt get housing benefit as I had no contract (however, as I wasn't paying rent it balanced out). Then I decided it'd be better to scrimp by on minimum wage (in London) so signed off of JSA..... It's only now that I've got a half-decent job (which may end at the end of April) so I doubt I'm eligible for any benefits.

I don't know what debt charities say but in my mind the people I need to support have to come before landlord who owns masses of property... But I'm trying to keep everyone happy. Could do without any more court cases hanging over me!

Any more court cases??? :eek: The debt charities class rent, mortgage and council tax priority debts because you can get CCJs or eviction if you do not pay. This is not about considering the needs of the landlord it is about stopping the tenant getting deeper into debt or ending up homeless. You could end up with an attachment of earnings which would put you in even deeper trouble.

Never text your landlord that should be reserved for your mates, do as much as possible in writing or via e-mail so you form a paper trail. You should have chased for a contract then you could have claimed LHA - if you had submitted your application without the contract your claim would have been put on hold and you would have received the money in arrears once the contract was sorted.

My last thought is why stay in London? As you say rent is crazy and you are struggling to find work, living on minimum wage in the north is far easier than in London. If you found a better paying job you'd have more money to support whomever you wish.