'Who do you support in the BA strike?' poll discussion

MrShed

MarySmith wrote: »

Now...lets have a little think about this shall we?

The vitriole and hatred which has been directed at the decent men and women who work as British Airways Cabin Crew is quite honestly, disgusting and shameful.

Personally, I dont HATE these people - at all. I suspect that they have, at the very least, been disproportionately encouraged by a highly militant and dated union.

I absolutely hate the fact that they are striking.

One thing is driving the strength of feeling from the general public who have been cleverly brainwashed and manipulated by a bigoted press.....politics!!! The individuals have been forgotten.

Please dont assume that anyone who disagrees with you has been manipulated. I have my own tongue in my head, and have formed my own opinion.

I dont expect the railwaymen, or gasmen or Civil Servants and possibly the teachers who may all be imminently striking.......will be portrayed in the same way

Possibly not - all I can say is that my personal feelings would be the same. My partner is a teacher, and she knows very well that I would probably fall out with her if she went on strike.

and their salaries are FAR higher in many cases than those of the majority of BA Cabin Crew.

I dont see the relevance.

This is not a dispute about our salaries, they have been dragged into it for the dramatic effect of making people jealous and bitter. Its not true.... we DO NOT earn the salaries quoted in the press and our salaries ARE in line with Virgin, you just dont hear about their allowances which are added on the top!!!

Then go work for Virgin....

Yes, its a great job (well it was!), yes we go to lovely places and stay in fabulous hotels....we also work very hard, are very well trained and were justifiably proud of our Company and Colleagues! It is simply not fair that we are being villified in this way.

You are not being vilified for the work you do (other than by some idiots). You are being vilified for striking over possible job losses, when we are in a recession, and possible loss of benefits - again, when we are in a recession. Bear in mind that certainly a sizeable minority, if not the majority, of people have either lost their job, or have had pay cuts/benefit cuts during the last couple of years.

This is the real world.

I cant speak for everyone but I used to wear my uniform with pride. Now I hang my head.

Whatever your feelings about Unite or the Labour party, I emplore you to think about the decent hard working men and women caught up in this awful situation and imagine if it were you.

But the situation is of their own making!!!

The bit I REALLY cant understand is the complaints about NEW starters having lower pay.

So what? What business is if of current employees? It is very very common practice to change terms for new employees at a later date.

If the union feels it is a derisory pay - again, so what? IF it is genuinely crap pay, then people simply wont apply...!!!

I certainly dont hate or vilify the workers - I feel that they do a job that, whilst it isnt the hardest job in the world (that isnt to say you dont work hard, just saying that it certainly isnt the worst), its something I personally simply couldnt do, and as such I have a great deal of respect for those workers.

The whole problem is quite simple - if you dont like the job, leave if you feel you can get better.

If you cant, then stay and do your job.

This is an open labour market, and the market dictates wages and terms. If the wages and terms arent good enough, people will simply walk. It is telling that the workers have decided to strike other than walk.

Top and bottom of it, you can really tell that BA is ex public sector!

jd87

Calling cabin crew "glorified waitresses" is moronic and people who say this clearly do not understand anything about the world of aviation.

However I am against the strike. The main thing BA management want is to reduce the number of cabin crew by one on certain long haul routes. I understand that this extra cabin crew member is often referred to by the crew as "the sudoku guy" or something to that effect; there is so little work to do on these lightly loaded routes that one person gets to sit around for all of the flight and play games.

In an environment where airlines need to cut costs and stay competitive, I think the cabin crew need to accept that sacrifices need to be made. Bravo to the BA management for so far dealing with the situation well. I think this weeks MSE poll numbers show that they have the public's support.

PhiltheBear

jd87 wrote: »

Calling cabin crew "glorified waitresses" is moronic and people who say this clearly do not understand anything about the world of aviation.

BA's cabin crew training - for NEW staff - takes exactly 3 weeks. (That's what BA say). A full First Aid at Work training takes a week. So, that leaves 2 weeks to learn what exactly? How to serve meals, how to show people where the emergency exits are, how to wear the uniform, how to hand out landing cards, how to deal with complaints... Because all those things are covered in the 3 weeks training.

What else is there that makes them worth a lot of money? Absolutely nothing. How would I know - I used to train the First Aid part. When I did it the only thing over and above a normal FAW qualification was the ability to give an injection - and that's effectively just stabbing someone with an epipen. Things may have changed - but I doubt it. Cabin crew are just waiters/waitresses who think they are more than that. They aren't.

Even if they were - why is it that the gripe comes from Heathrow staff and not the rest? The Gatwick crews don't seem to be falling over themselves to come out on strike. Perhaps the Heathrow people are specially qualified.

PhiltheBear

jamesevans25 wrote: »

The BA staff have every right to strike as they currently earn on a par with staff working for their main rivals .......

In the first place earning the same as someone else doesn't give you a "right to strike".

In the second - BA cabin crew earn way more than their rivals. About 50% more than Virgin I believe.

So, wrong on both counts.

jd87

Hi Phil. Here are the regulations that detail the initial safety training that all "waitresses" must go through, as detailed in Appendix 1 to OPS 1.1005 in Annex III to EC regulation 859/2008:

Appendix 1 to OPS 1.1005
Initial safety training
The subjects that must be covered as a minimum by a course of initial safety training referred to in OPS 1.1005 are:
(a) Fire and smoke training:
1. emphasis on the responsibility of cabin crew to deal promptly with emergencies involving fire and smoke and, in
particular, emphasis on the importance of identifying the actual source of the fire;
2. the importance of informing the flight crew immediately, as well as the specific actions necessary for coordination
and assistance, when fire or smoke is discovered;
3. the necessity for frequent checking of potential fire-risk areas including toilets, and the associated smoke detectors;
4. the classification of fires and the appropriate type of extinguishing agents and procedures for particular fire situations,
the techniques of application of extinguishing agents, the consequences of misapplication, and of use in a
confined space; and
5. the general procedures of ground-based emergency services at aerodromes.
(b) Water survival training.
The actual donning and use of personal flotation equipment in water. Before first operating on an aeroplane fitted with
life-rafts or other similar equipment, training must be given on the use of this equipment, as well as actual practice in
water.
(c) Survival training.
Survival training shall be appropriate to the areas of operation (e.g. polar, desert, jungle or sea).
(d) Medical aspects and first aid:
1. instruction on medical aspects and first-aid, first-aid kits, emergency medical kits, their contents and emergency
medical equipment;
2. first-aid associated with survival training and appropriate hygiene; and
3. the physiological effects of flying and with particular emphasis on hypoxia.
(e) Passenger handling:
1. advice on the recognition and management of passengers who are, or become, intoxicated with alcohol or are
under the influence of drugs or are aggressive;
2. methods used to motivate passengers and the crowd control necessary to expedite an aeroplane evacuation;
3. regulations covering the safe stowage of cabin baggage (including cabin service items) and the risk of it becoming
a hazard to occupants of the cabin or otherwise obstruction or damaging emergency equipment or aeroplane exits;
4. the importance of correct seat allocation with reference to aeroplane mass and balance. Particular emphasis shall
also be given on the seating of disabled passengers, and the necessity of seating able-bodied passengers adjacent
to unsupervised exits;
5. duties to be undertaken in the event of encountering turbulence, including securing the cabin;
6. precautions to be taken when live animals are carried in the cabin;
7. dangerous goods training, including provisions under Subpart R;
8. security procedures, including provisions under Subpart S.
L 254/192 EN Official Journal of the European Union 20.9.2008
(f) Communication.
During training, emphasis shall be placed on the importance of effective communication between cabin crew and flight
crew including technique, common language and terminology.
(g) Discipline and responsibilities:
1. the importance of cabin crew performing their duties in accordance with the Operations Manual;
2. continuing competence and fitness to operate as a cabin crew member with special regard to flight and duty time
limitations and rest requirements;
3. an awareness of the aviation regulations relating to cabin crew and the role of the Civil Aviation Authority;
4. general knowledge of relevant aviation terminology, theory of flight, passenger distribution, meteorology and areas
of operation;
5. pre-flight briefing of the cabin crew and the provision of necessary safety information with regards to their specific
duties;
6. the importance of ensuring that relevant documents and manuals are kept up-to-date with amendments provided
by the operator;
7. the importance of identifying when cabin crew members have the authority and responsibility to initiate an evacuation
and other emergency procedures; and
8. the importance of safety duties and responsibilities and the need to respond promptly and effectively to emergency
situations.
9. awareness of the effects of surface contamination and the need to inform the flight crew of any observed surface
contamination.
(h) Crew resource management.
1. Introductory CRM course:
(i) a cabin crew member shall complete an introductory CRM course before being first assigned to operate as a
cabin crew member. Cabin crew who are already operating as cabin crew members in commercial air transportation
and who have not previously completed an introductory course, shall complete an introductory
CRM course by the time of the next required recurrent training and/or checking.
(ii) The training elements in Appendix 2 to OPS 1.1005/1.1010/1/1.1015 Table 1, Column (a) shall be covered
to the level required in Column (b), introductory CRM course.
(iii) The introductory CRM course shall be conducted by at least one cabin crew CRM instructor.

In addition Appendix 1 to OPS 1.1010 states the requirements of further training cabin crew need to undergo:

Appendix 1 to OPS 1.1010
Conversion and differences training
(a) General:
An operator shall ensure that:
1. conversion and differences training is conducted by suitably qualified personnel; and
2. during conversion and differences training, training is given on the location, removal and use of all safety and survival
equipment carried on the aeroplane, as well as all normal and emergency procedures related to the aeroplane
type, variant and configuration to be operated.
(b) Fire and smoke training:
An operator shall ensure that:
1. each cabin crew member is given realistic and practical training in the use of all fire-fighting equipment including
protective clothing representative of that carried in the aeroplane. This training must include:
(i) extinguishing a fire characteristic of an aeroplane interior fire except that, in the case of Halon extinguishers,
an alternative extinguishing agent may be used; and
(ii) the donning and use of protective breathing equipment in an enclosed, simulated smoke-filled environment.
(c) Operations of doors and exits:
An operator shall ensure that:
1. each cabin crew member operates and actually opens each type or variant of normal and emergency exits in the
normal and emergency modes, including failure of power assist systems where fitted. This is to include the action
and forces required to operate and deploy evacuation slides. This training shall be conducted in an aeroplane or
representative training device; and
2. the operation of all other exits, such as flight deck windows is demonstrated.
(d) Evacuation slide training:
An operator shall ensure that:
1. each cabin crew member descends an evacuation slide from a height representative of the aeroplane’s main deck
sill height;
2. the slide is fitted to an aeroplane or a representative training device; and
3. a further descent is made when the cabin crew member qualifies on an aeroplane type in which the main deck
exit sill height differs significantly from any aeroplane type previously operated.
(e) Evacuation procedures and other emergency situations:
An operator shall ensure that:
1. emergency evacuation training includes the recognition of planned or unplanned evacuations on land or water.
This training must include recognition of when exits are unusable or when evacuation equipment is unserviceable;
and
2. each cabin crew member is trained to deal with the following:
(i) an in-flight fire, with particular emphasis on identifying the actual source of the fire;
L 254/194 EN Official Journal of the European Union 20.9.2008
(ii) severe air turbulence;
(iii) sudden decompression, including the donning of portable oxygen equipment by each cabin crew member;
and
(iv) other in-flight emergencies.
(f) Crowd control.
An operator shall ensure that training is provided on the practical aspects of crowd control in various emergency situations,
as applicable to the aeroplane type.
(g) Pilot incapacitation.
An operator shall ensure that, unless the minimum flight crew is more than two, each cabin crew member is trained in
the procedure for flight crew member incapacitation and shall operate the seat and harness mechanisms. Training in
the use of flight crew members’ oxygen system and use of the flight crew members’ check lists, where required by the
operator’s SOP’s, shall be conducted by a practical demonstration.
(h) Safety equipment.
An operator shall ensure that each cabin crew member is given realistic training on, and demonstration of, the location
and use of safety equipment including the following:
1. slides, and where non-self-supporting slides are carried, the use of any associated ropes;
2. life-rafts and slide-raft, including the equipment attached to, and/or carried in, the raft;
3. lifejackets, infant lifejackets and flotation cots;
4. dropout oxygen system;
5. first-aid oxygen;
6. fire extinguishers;
7. fire axe or crow-bar;
8. emergency lights including torches;
9. communication equipment, including megaphones;
10. survival packs, including their contents;
11. pyrotechnics (actual or representative devices);
12. first-aid kits, emergency medical kits, their contents and emergency medical equipment; and
13. other cabin safety equipment or systems where applicable.
(i) Passenger briefing/safety demonstrations.
An operator shall ensure that training is given in the preparation of passengers for normal and emergency situations in
accordance with OPS 1.285.
(j) When initial medical aspects and first aid training has not included the avoidance of infectious diseases, especially in
tropical and sub-tropical climates, such training shall be provided if an operator’s route network is extended or changed
to include such areas.
20.9.2008 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 254/195
(k) Crew resource management. An operator shall ensure that:
1. Each cabin crew member completes the operator’s CRM training covering the training elements in Appendix 2 to
OPS 1.1005/1.1010/1.1015 Table 1, Column (a) to the level required in Column (c) before undertaking subsequent
aeroplane type specific CRM and/or recurrent CRM training.
2. When a cabin crew member undertakes a conversion course on another aeroplane type, the training elements in
Appendix 2 to OPS 1.1005/1.1010/1.1015 Table 1, Column (a) shall be covered to the level required in Column
(d), aeroplane type specific CRM.
3. The operator’s CRM training and aeroplane type specific CRM shall be conducted by a least one cabin crew CRM
instructor.

So yeah, they're just overpaid waitresses really...

leachyd

Stikes me (get it!?) that the management really are in the stronger position here. Seems that BA had made some reasonable offers that it saw as necessary to stabilise the business in tought conditons....Let's face it, the industry has gone through some serious change recently, and BA has faced it's fair share of "shocks" such as 9/11, T5 (as a result of BAA's and Heathrow's failires - as far as I'm aware, BA don't operate or own the baggage system that caused all the strife).....then the unions reject them, hoping to get a better offer. The crew strike, lose a decent offer, plus their perks, even though they knew this would be the consequence! With that in mind i have little sympathy for a set of workers that are reportedly paid above the industry average (despite doing exactly the same job!) who think that they can throw their weight around to the detriment to BA.

To answer the people moaning about BA buillying the crew....The reason you are all in the union is to prevent this from happening....the crew form a gang with the principle intention of pressurising BA, yet BA are the bully?! Essentially i see that BA has a monopoly over its workforce (they are their only employer), just as the union is a monopoly supplier of labour...it makes it 1 v 1...If you arent strong enough to pick a fight, then don't pick a fight!

As with most posters, i think that the crew really ought to get back to work while they still have a job.

Firmly on the side of BA here...if i was Willie Walsh i'd quite happily see the airline go tits up....that might stop a few whingers in other industries calling strikes

emmainmerseyside

Astro1 - I note that you fail to mention the entitlement to free flights and the extension of heavily discounted rates on a sliding scale for named family/partners - my sister gets a limited number of free BA flights anywhere in the wolrd and pays 10% of the cost for her husband. In addition you will have an annual bonus? no mention of this in your post. Most of us have to pay for gym membership but you wont have to as you can use the gym for free in the hotels you stay in.
You simply cannot cite poor service as a consequence of BA cost cutting measures, I am of the opinion that BA service is already of a lower standard than a rival company where the crew are paid significantly less. I back Willy all the way on this one.

Astro1 wrote: »

Dear happyrichard,
I am BA crew and I love my job. I make around £22000 per year including basic pay (£13000)allowances, overtime and commission (fluctuates up or down), this means I come home with about £1425 per month, living in London and I have been with BA for just over 4 years. Being a competative job to get into, I spent years studying firstly for a diploma in International Hotel Management and then a degree in Business (hospitality and tourism), as well as improving my skills through various jobs in 5 star hotels before applying to BA. My question is, don't you think a company that prides itself on excellence should offer a decent salary package to attract the best applicants? Secondly, you state we dont understand what is required to ensure businesses remain competative in the current economic climate..... Let me assure you we are well aware of the sacrifices we all have to make, we even offered to take a pay cut amongst other things. Your message implies that airlines can only remain competative by slashing employee costs? Airlines can also gain competative advantage by differentiating themselves through excellent customer service by employing the best and most qualified people for the job, not bringing in cheap labour with a high turnover.

superflygal

I am cabin crew (not for BA) and think the BA staff's actions are disgraceful. Most of the crew moaning are the old timers, 20 years service on £45k a year. The fact that they have reduced from 14 crew to 13 would make hardly any difference on Long haul sectors.

It is important to note that the new crew (recruited after 1997) are on low wages, it is the old crew that earn ridiculously good money, as BA changed the contracts in the late 1990s, obviously realising decent staff could be recruited for less than they were paying. BA have had loads of financial problems too, and I think the government had to bail them out in 2001.

Some of these BA crew don't know they've been born!

Stop using passengers as weapons to get revenge on a good company!

SFG x

Jomo

Astro1 wrote: »

Dear happyrichard,
I am BA crew and I love my job. I make around £22000 per year including basic pay (£13000)allowances, overtime and commission (fluctuates up or down), this means I come home with about £1425 per month, living in London and I have been with BA for just over 4 years. Being a competative job to get into, I spent years studying firstly for a diploma in International Hotel Management and then a degree in Business (hospitality and tourism), as well as improving my skills through various jobs in 5 star hotels before applying to BA. My question is, don't you think a company that prides itself on excellence should offer a decent salary package to attract the best applicants? Secondly, you state we dont understand what is required to ensure businesses remain competative in the current economic climate..... Let me assure you we are well aware of the sacrifices we all have to make, we even offered to take a pay cut amongst other things. Your message implies that airlines can only remain competative by slashing employee costs? Airlines can also gain competative advantage by differentiating themselves through excellent customer service by employing the best and most qualified people for the job, not bringing in cheap labour with a high turnover.

But you knew approximately what becoming an air steward would give you salary-wise.

Me, personally wouldn't have gone this route because I knew the salary wasn't that great. I do know of some 'air stewards' that love their job so the salary doesn't bother them.

sindbad

In the midst of all this turmoil BA have granted the Directors & Managers below hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of shares.....

To put it in perspective at todays value Keith Williams will earn £825,812 - he is top earner of this scheme and Silla Maizey will earn £270,642 she is the lowest earner.

In simpler terms for every 1p rise in the share price Keith Williams earns £3251.23p

You couldnt make it up when they are recruiting crew on £11,000 per annum and £2.40 per hour

Since the 30th August 2005 Mr W Walsh has been awarded 1,218,417 shares ( yes that is over 1 million shares ).

Mr Walsh has exercised (sold ) 128,078 of those shares leaving him with an award from BA of 1,090,339 - a value at todays share price of £2.54 of circa £2,769, 461

On top of this of course is Mr Walsh's salary and bonuses

For every 1p rise in the share price Mr Walsh makes a personal gain of £10,903 - yes nearly £11,000 per penny rise - thats the equivalent basic salary of a New Fleet recruit......
RITISH AIRWAYS PERFORMANCE SHARE PLAN AWARDS

The Company has received notification that the following Director and Persons
Discharging Managerial Responsibilities (PDMR) of the Company have received
conditional awards of ordinary shares of 25p each under the British Airways
Performance Share Plan ('PSP') which were formally granted to each of them on 19
March 2010.

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| Name | Position | PSP |
| | | Number of |
| | | Awards |
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| | | |
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| Keith Williams | Director | 325,123 |
+

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| Robert Boyle | PDMR | 174,877 |
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| Andrew Crawley | PDMR | 135,468 |
+

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| Garrett Copeland | PDMR | 113,300 |
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| Drusilla Maizey | PDMR | 106,552 |
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| Roger Maynard | PDMR | 137,931 |
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| Anthony McCarthy | PDMR | 184,729 |
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The awards under the PSP will vest at the end of the three-year performance
period (starting with the year of the award) only if the performance of British
Airways satisfies the relevant performance conditions over the single three-year
performance period. The performance condition of the award measures the
Company's total shareholder return ('TSR') against a group of other airline
companies. The PSP performance conditions are more fully described in the
Remuneration Report contained in the Annual Report and Accounts 2008/2009 a copy
of which can be accessed online at bashares.com

No consideration is payable for the making or vesting of the awards.

Notification is made under Disclosure Rule 3.1.2 following notification from the
participants.


Alan Buchanan
Company Secretary
25 March 2010


RNS Number : 2135J
British Airways PLC
25 March 2010