Is Deliberately Starving Millions of the Populace to death A Good Thing

Sapphire

carolt wrote: »

What is your experience, Sapphire?

I'm talking about the experiences of my family members, and my own personal experience - I have visited East Germany many times and spent a lot of time there. Both before and since Communism.

Go watch the film I named, and see for yourself what I was referring to.

I'm not claiming life under communism was perfect; you'd have to be a fool to do so.

But then nor is life under capitalism perfect either; anyone who claims that all the evils lie within the communist system only are fools too, in my opinion.

My experience of communism, to be more precise (though I thought I had made myself clear enough), includes my grandfather (a senior doctor) being murdered by Russian communists, my great-grandmother escaping Poland during the Stalinist period after unspeakable horrors (which I won't describe on this forum) suffered at the hands of the communists, and many of my relatives having to leave the country to take up academic positions elsewhere due to conditions being so intolerable for them in Poland under communism.

Of course capitalism is not perfect (no system ever will be), but it is a lot better than communism. How on earth can you justify communism – a system that murdered tens of millions of people, and destroyed the cultures of ancient nations?

What do you mean by the statement 'anyone who claims that all the evils lie within the communist system only are fools too, in my opinion'? I don't recall making any such statement, and as someone whose family was deeply affected by communism (as well as by facism via the Germans) I find your remarks offensive.

JayScottGreenspan

Masomnia wrote: »

People do often say that Communism's good in theory, so I ask them exactly in what way. 'Umm... well...'

Communism is always forced on people and strips them of their freedom and right to pursue whatever goals they choose.

My thoughts exactly.

A population will not voluntarily give over their personal profits/land to the state. Communism needs to be enforced.

A significant degree of totalitarianism is necessary to maintain a communist state. Therefore communism is only "good in theory" if totalitarianism is "good in theory". Which it isn't.

ninky_2

Kohoutek wrote: »

Where in the world is global free-market capitalism claiming millions of lives every day?

many many countries in africa. in niger famine resulted for many even though average crop production only fell by 11 percent. there was enough food to feed the population but they couldn't afford it. crops continue to be exported where they can gain profit (and often end up as part of western food waste) where they produce disposable income for the few as others starve.

what is a 'cash crop' if not the motivation to make financial gains from the land whilst ignoring the needs to feed the hungry population. the wealth from these profits does not generally trickle down to the needy but rather raises the prices of commodities such as food so they become even more unaffordable.

Generali

ninky wrote: »

many many countries in africa. in niger famine resulted for many even though average crop production only fell by 11 percent. there was enough food to feed the population but they couldn't afford it. crops continue to be exported where they can gain profit (and often end up as part of western food waste) where they produce disposable income for the few as others starve.

what is a 'cash crop' if not the motivation to make financial gains from the land whilst ignoring the needs to feed the hungry population. the wealth from these profits does not generally trickle down to the needy but rather raises the prices of commodities such as food so they become even more unaffordable.

Do you have numbers as to what constitutes the few and the many in this case?

When was this famine please? Did it coincide with a war? (IME most famines are caused by politics rather than by lack of food).

ninky_2

Generali wrote: »

Do you have numbers as to what constitutes the few and the many in this case?

When was this famine please? Did it coincide with a war? (IME most famines are caused by politics rather than by lack of food).

the 2005 famine. http://www.marxist.com/famine-niger-horror-capitalism241005.htm

there are plenty of examples of this type of thing in africa (i.e. where food is for sale or available but just unaffordable to many). afraid i don't have time to do a background search for links on all of them.

ninky_2

some more food for thought on the communism causes famine debate

http://www.newsfromplanetearth.com/21540/the-communism-starves-the-people-!!!!!!!!/

"I would like to defend the Communist record against one of the worst slanders, that “Communism equals starvation.” Not true, it’s actually capitalism equals starvation.
There were continuous famines in China under capitalism. In 1949, life expectancy was only 32 years in capitalist China. The rural people lived on the edge of starvation and death all the time. Read The Good Earth by Pearl Buck to see what it was like. From 1949-1980, Mao increased life expectancy from 32 to 65. That’s the greatest increase in life expectancy that the world has ever seen."

jamespir

no its not its a bad thing

Generali

ninky wrote: »

the 2005 famine. http://www.marxist.com/famine-niger-horror-capitalism241005.htm

there are plenty of examples of this type of thing in africa (i.e. where food is for sale or available but just unaffordable to many). afraid i don't have time to do a background search for links on all of them.

Some rudimentary research using non-Marxist materials (eg WHO website) seems to show that the Niger famine was a localised famine caused by locust invasion and drought so no Capitalist input into the famine. Phew! Clear there.

The article states that food is available on the markets but is expensive. Unless the Government confiscates food and distributes it then that will be the outcome in a famine unfortunately. What happens however if the Niger Government confiscates food from farmers during a famine do you imagine? An equitable distribution of food or Government employees setting up their own markets? (Recent African history strongly suggests the latter).

Then your article uses these sentences:

The UN should have immediately organised free food distribution.” But is this likely under this profit-seeking, bloodthirsty capitalist system?

Free food distribution would send bankrupt farmers supplying from out of area making problems worse next time around.

I refrain from commenting on the latter sentence.

Generali

ninky wrote: »

http://www.newsfromplanetearth.com/21540/the-communism-starves-the-people-!!!!!!!!/ From 1949-1980, Mao increased life expectancy from 32 to 65. That’s the greatest increase in life expectancy that the world has ever seen."

It seems unlikely that life expectancy was such that if you had children when you were 20 and then at 22 years old that you'd just about see the first to sexual 'maturity' and the younger to the end of childhood. I don't belive the figures nor the source.

Can you quote some people that aren't mental please? That website is pretty wierd.

harryhound

Scotland, a land that sent its surplus people overseas as a result of the Highland Clearances - so the land owners could get better profits from Black faced sheep.

Ireland, a chaotic country, where the people surplus was allowed to build up until most were living in poverty and depending on a food crop that now can yield 8 tonnes to the acre. A plant disease coupled with poor administration resulted in mass emigration and many early deaths.

Cuba, a corrupted country where the poor revolted, the dispossessed capitalists lobbied against any dollar aid and are still demanding the return or their rum factories and sugar plantations. Result: a vassal state of the USSR where the population doubled and then the sugar crop halved.

China, a so called communist state, with a huge demand for jobs - now that there is no wage at which a peasant can compete with modern automated agriculture.

The world - a small planet, orbiting an obscure sun, in a remote galaxy populated by a strange cooking ape that has exceeded the natural carrying capacity of its land.

This is the most up to date comment on politics and "The way we live now" that I can find:

Greek Corporation: You have two cows, eat three of them for your own private barbeque with your shareholders, lie about it at the board and ask for 5 more cows as a loan and keep them for your next private BBQ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_have_two_cows
http://www.manbottle.com/humor/capitalism_and_cows

(There is a whole library of Enron cow jokes out there)