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3rd Time BR, in 4k+ debt after 6 months!
DarkConvict
Posts: 6,347
Forumite
Hi,
I've been hear a few times over the last 8ish months asking the odd questions for a friend, and as the title suggests things have not gone well for them. BR is to be honest a mostly negative time, but this seems to be a further tragic tale to how bad BR is as it seems pretty much self caused on all accounts.
They went BR in September 2009 with debts of roughly ~£10-15k. This been the 3rd time BR in about the last 15 years. Their ability to manage finances was certainly not their strong point, and after repeated requests won't let anyone help with it, getting them to talk to national debtline/CCCS/Payplan kind of worked but there advice seemed to fall on deaf ears, so the question is can someone like this ever learn to be responsible?
The reason for the current debt is they were signed off from work for ill health grounds and later made medically redundant, to be honest they will likely never return to work again. Anyway they have been on a NT tax code but were never told about paying moonbeaver the extra income 'tax' (even though from these forums i told them to query it, they decided not to). They overvalued their expenditure a little to ensure sufficient money was available to live off, however it all seems to have disappeared 'somewhere'.
Come February they were given £4.5k settlement to leave work (this included medical package, backpay, holiday owed etc), from this they paid off their outstanding household bills for telephone/cable/gas etc, although this should all have been budgeted for already in the income/outgoing sheet for the BR. His car was beyond repair so brought a new one staying under the £1000 limit, needed due to their medical condition to actually have a basic standard of living. They informed the OR about the payment and was told they wanted it all and they should not spend it, well as you can see from the above they spent it anyway, some before and some after they were told.
So several months of tax, and over £4000 medical severance is what they owe to the official receiver, so £4k+ in debt to the OR after just 6 months. Somewhat obviously they have gone into 'shutdown' mode and isn't talking to anyone or at least us (although we need to visit to recover our property from their house), looking at what they should have had in terms of income was ~£9,000 (corrected figure) over those months and the outgoings should have been no where near that high. There seems to be £1,000's of unaccounted for expenditure we can't seem to work out where they could have spent it, there is nothing in/out the house bar a £300 TV and the car that has actually changed.
I believe they are certainly looking at a BRO if not criminal prosecutions, max is 7 years in jail, possible court fines and upto 15 years BRO, for spending their assets and potential fraud (at a guess).
Sure the above is a brief listing of events with basic facts but i think you get the picture. Is there anything we can do to make them actually see the light, no matter how much we talked to them about what they could/should do, the best way to do things even if its just be honest and let the OR handle it, any talk of money is quickly met by a change of topic. Ironically a friend of their is having trouble and when its mentioned they just say some people just don't listen to advice, they should have listened to me (exactly what they do themselves). Honestly, How many people get in debt to their own OR so quickly?
I've been hear a few times over the last 8ish months asking the odd questions for a friend, and as the title suggests things have not gone well for them. BR is to be honest a mostly negative time, but this seems to be a further tragic tale to how bad BR is as it seems pretty much self caused on all accounts.
They went BR in September 2009 with debts of roughly ~£10-15k. This been the 3rd time BR in about the last 15 years. Their ability to manage finances was certainly not their strong point, and after repeated requests won't let anyone help with it, getting them to talk to national debtline/CCCS/Payplan kind of worked but there advice seemed to fall on deaf ears, so the question is can someone like this ever learn to be responsible?
The reason for the current debt is they were signed off from work for ill health grounds and later made medically redundant, to be honest they will likely never return to work again. Anyway they have been on a NT tax code but were never told about paying moonbeaver the extra income 'tax' (even though from these forums i told them to query it, they decided not to). They overvalued their expenditure a little to ensure sufficient money was available to live off, however it all seems to have disappeared 'somewhere'.
Come February they were given £4.5k settlement to leave work (this included medical package, backpay, holiday owed etc), from this they paid off their outstanding household bills for telephone/cable/gas etc, although this should all have been budgeted for already in the income/outgoing sheet for the BR. His car was beyond repair so brought a new one staying under the £1000 limit, needed due to their medical condition to actually have a basic standard of living. They informed the OR about the payment and was told they wanted it all and they should not spend it, well as you can see from the above they spent it anyway, some before and some after they were told.
So several months of tax, and over £4000 medical severance is what they owe to the official receiver, so £4k+ in debt to the OR after just 6 months. Somewhat obviously they have gone into 'shutdown' mode and isn't talking to anyone or at least us (although we need to visit to recover our property from their house), looking at what they should have had in terms of income was ~£9,000 (corrected figure) over those months and the outgoings should have been no where near that high. There seems to be £1,000's of unaccounted for expenditure we can't seem to work out where they could have spent it, there is nothing in/out the house bar a £300 TV and the car that has actually changed.
I believe they are certainly looking at a BRO if not criminal prosecutions, max is 7 years in jail, possible court fines and upto 15 years BRO, for spending their assets and potential fraud (at a guess).
Sure the above is a brief listing of events with basic facts but i think you get the picture. Is there anything we can do to make them actually see the light, no matter how much we talked to them about what they could/should do, the best way to do things even if its just be honest and let the OR handle it, any talk of money is quickly met by a change of topic. Ironically a friend of their is having trouble and when its mentioned they just say some people just don't listen to advice, they should have listened to me (exactly what they do themselves). Honestly, How many people get in debt to their own OR so quickly?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies
There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies
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Comments
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DarkConvict, I really don't know to be honest
What a situation, I guess the only thing you can do is let the OR do what the OR has to do and be there, and if they do end up in serious trouble, which I am guessing they will do what you can for them then.
Maybe if they do end up in jail, not ideal I know, but maybe that would be the wake up call they need?
My sil is one who will not learn, she is on an IVA, yet tried to get credit, never budgets and is regularly bailed out by hubbies Uncle, yet she earns more than my hubby, and they get dla and a brand new motability car. Yet she still never has any money. She doesn't get much sympathy from this quarter I can tell you!!
Some people are just incapable of taking control of their lives unfortunately.
I hope it works out ok for them and they can get it sorted out.0 -
sorry to say it, but some people neaver learn. like u said where has all that money gone ?. i live on 120 a week and now have saveing of over 800 quid since nov br , u would think after the third time something would have sunk in. like i said sorry to say it. but what ever happens they must open ther eyes to what they are doing and get help from cab or other services. and quick.0
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its a shame that after being made BR they are still struggling with money.
I am new to this so please forgive me, but i cant see how they owe 4K in six months. Is it because they have come into the 4K and should have given it to OR?
This site is so informative and i hope that you dont mind me asking a silly question.
Also will they get a BRO/BRU for this, and have they had one before?
Thanks - just trying to learn and everyday there is something i find out.
Many thanks
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Thanks for the replies so far.
Yes, the 4k should have been handled over, with the insolvency people everything is done on individual circumstances, some offices won't take it, some will take just the redundancy/medical section of it, others will take the whole lot including backpay/notice pay/holidays.
If you give someone who has had nothing but debt pretty much their whole life, £4,000 i could just see it was not lasting, we even suggested we hold onto it in a separate savings account so that it didn't get spent. Furthermore because they were told by me, not the OR the tax should go to moonbeaver, they pocketed it themselves and have subsequently spent it. The odd thing is before Christmas they had nearly £1000 in the bank, they must have gone madly spending on something yet have nothing to show for it.
They got advice from CAB because they were hoping if it was spent they couldn't take it, basically they got told upto 15 years BRO and 7 years in prison. Some of the problem is the previous 2 bankruptcies they never paid an IPA, it was just sign here debts are gone, carry on as normal in 12 months.
You have to laugh otherwise you would cry, getting in debt to the insolvency service.Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies0 -
Forgive me if I have read the thread wrong, but arent you automatically given a BRU/O should you be made bankrupt for a second/third time?
Is this where the criminal aspect is coming into it, for breaking the restriction??I used to be Snow White, but I drifted.Mae West
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Let's hope they end up in prison. Shameless low life with no conscience. The expense of incarceration is unfortunate.
Stop searching for excuses for them. They are crooks and chancers and are laughing all the way to the bleeding hearts.0 -
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i see where you are coming from now.
I think that the best thing to do, is wait until later on in the day when some of the more experienced members come in and post about this, as its a very complex set of questions really. I may be speaking out of turn, so please forgive me, but i was wondering if there are underlying issues maybe gambling, drugs of mental health problems that are contributing to the problem? I know its not an excuse so please dont jump on me, but obviously the person involved just isnt getting the situation and needs help.
X0 -
Forgive me if I have read the thread wrong, but arent you automatically given a BRU/O should you be made bankrupt for a second/third time?
Is this where the criminal aspect is coming into it, for breaking the restriction??
I am not aware of any automatic BROs for a 2nd or more bankruptcy. The criminal aspect was just the fact jail is a possibility.Let's hope they end up in prison. Shameless low life with no conscience. The expense of incarceration is unfortunate.
Stop searching for excuses for them. They are crooks and chancers and are laughing all the way to the bleeding hearts.
Harsh words but i don't disagree, we would actually like the OR to rip though all the details to find out where the money has gone. But aside from finances they are actually fantastic, a caring person, its just finances is the one massive downfall.i see where you are coming from now.
I think that the best thing to do, is wait until later on in the day when some of the more experienced members come in and post about this, as its a very complex set of questions really. I may be speaking out of turn, so please forgive me, but i was wondering if there are underlying issues maybe gambling, drugs of mental health problems that are contributing to the problem? I know its not an excuse so please dont jump on me, but obviously the person involved just isnt getting the situation and needs help.
I have wondered this too, they did spend £40 on the lottery a few weeks ago, and have seen bet tickets on football matches, £10 here £40 there adds up. So i wouldn't be surprised if they do gamble.
In terms of medical issues, they do have epilepsy which if they miss the tablets can cause a high risk of fitting, they also recently (well a few years) started to suffer osteoarthritis, which is now classed as server in the back, hip and is spreading.
The car they brought i have found out today is going back, it had 11 months MOT but has broken down with server problems so they are getting a refund from the dealer. They sadly just need to get it repaired to a drive-able condition to get it there, so will be £200 down.
I don't think there is any real advice that can be given, i was here looking to see what others thought about it, as maybe there was some gleaming piece of info that might be useful.Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies0 -
It came from the CAB advisor that they went to see, my mom speaks to them more than i do, i am much more of the computer guy, researching, writing letters etc.
The CAB said that for being dishonest with the OR, or not complying with there requests, disposable of assets etc. the maximum sentence is 7 years in Jail and upto 15 years bankruptcy restriction order.Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies0
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