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Discuss the It's scary to find myself defending cash machines charges Blog

This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's "It's scary to find myself defending the banks over cash machines charges...." blog. Please read the blog first, as the discussion follows it.


Read Martin's "It's scary to find myself defending the banks over cash machines charges.... " Blog
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  • RobN_2
    RobN_2 Posts: 17 Forumite
    Out of curiosity, when Martin wears his "Capitalist Martin" hat, what are his views on "unfair" bank charges that are clearly explained in the T&C for all those who care to read them?

    P.S. Apostrophe abuse!! There's no apostrophe in "banks" when used as the plural of "bank".

    P.P.S. I'm not always such a pedant. Just often ;)
  • MSE_Martin
    MSE_Martin Posts: 8,272 Money Saving Expert
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    RobN the answer's simple.

    I dont blame banks for cash machine charges, nor do I blame them for overcharging generally - that's their job. OUr job as consumers (as I've written many times) is to stop them if we possibly can.

    I believe we live in an adversarial consumer society with companies and consumers in opposition within the law.

    And in the same way I advocate that people screw the banks, but only within the confines of the law. I don't blame the banks providing they act within the confines of the law.

    Unfair bank charges are not within the confines of the law - they are penalty charges which is not allowed under UK law.

    Even if they were legal - grabbing money back of the banks is a natural act in an adversarial society, if the banks are willing to pay out - and you are not being dishonest or defrauding them - i wouldn't have a problem any way.

    martin
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.
    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.
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  • zar
    zar Posts: 284 Forumite
    Maybe the real solution is allow nice basic banking at the post office with guaranteed opening hours, decent service, and the ability to withdraw cash at no cost there.

    That's exactly why we opened a smile account, as our nearest non-payment cash machine is about 10 miles away but they haven't quite closed down all the rural post offices yet. A list of bank accounts where you can get cash out/pay cash and/or cheques in at post offices is on their website

    It would be great if there was a bit of an education campaign to encourage people in communities where the alternatives are a charging cash machine and a post office (in some cases the machine is in the post office!) to switch to an account where you can do basic banking at the post office. This is especially important in rural communities where a lot of travel is involved to get to a bank - which may be ok if you're young with a car, but perhaps not when you're older and the rural bus service has gone down to twice a week. The more of us who use them, hopefully the less post offices will be closed (I may be being naive here :rolleyes: )
    :shhh: There's somewhere you can go and get books to read... for free!
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  • MarkyMarkD
    MarkyMarkD Posts: 9,912 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I'm pleased to see some sense on this subject.

    But Martin is missing the point that there are more than fifteen banks which provide basic bank account with FREE access to money at the Post Office.

    If the moan is that "poor people" (and I'm not using that term pejoratively, but quoting others who use it) can't access their money, then the Post Office solution is quite effective. Most of the "poor people" used to get their benefits/pensions from the Post Office in cash anyway, so it's NO hardship for them to have it paid into a basic bank account and withdraw it for free at the Post Office - no real change, in fact. The government has just craftily moved the cost of the Post Office payment system to the banks, rather than incurring it directly itself.

    There are, admittedly, people who are less than well paid but who don't depend on benefits - but there always were. And the charging ATMs are NOT, in the main, replacing banks at which they could withdraw money for free - the banks didn't used to be open at weekends, or after 3pm, so they were no use either to many a working person.

    Martin is quite right that most of the charging ATMs are incremental - if people are daft enough to pay to use them, that's their choice.

    And, as I've posted before, it's NOT always daft to pay - why travel (say) 5 miles (10 miles return) to use a "free" ATM, spending over £1 in petrol (plus wear and tear on your car), or more than that in bus fares, rather than pay £1.25 or £1.50 to use a charging ATM? Sometimes using a charging ATM can be the right financial and/or environmental choice.
  • Wyndham
    Wyndham Posts: 2,556 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    MarkyMarkD wrote:
    If the moan is that "poor people" (and I'm not using that term pejoratively, but quoting others who use it) can't access their money, then the Post Office solution is quite effective.

    Unfortunately, many post offices are closing, so I'm not sure that is the way forward (though it makes sense if it could be made to work). And I'm going to say it, despite your point, these charges to hit 'the poor' more than 'the rich'. They tend to be in 'poorer areas' (another possibly pejorative term) where housing is cheaper and there aren't as many ameneties.

    For once, I think Martin is wrong - and this is as big an issue as bank charges.
  • Tim_L
    Tim_L Posts: 3,816 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    And the charges aren't really related to the amount of the withdrawal, so people withdrawing smaller amounts pay more in relative terms. The less cash you have, the more it costs to get at, which is ridiculous. And as others have mentioned, the less money you have, the more you have to deal with cash, because cards are often difficult to get. Not everyone can get into a Post Office - those of us with full time jobs would find it very difficult indeed, except on Saturday mornings when the PO is packed anyway.

    I can understand some of the reasoning in the blog, but unfortunately when someone in the public eye starts saying this sort of thing, people start believing it to be inevitable. Banks can now turn round and tell people that "even Martin Lewis, the consumer champion believes ATM charging to be fair". It's the wrong thing to be saying, because ATM charging is manifestly unfair and hits the less well off disproportionately, just like bank penalty charges. If this is an "adversarial" culture, then the last thing any sensible person does is to hand your adversary a PR gift like this blog entry.

    Access to banking is essential nowadays, so banks do, I'm afraid, have some level of responsibility to keep their services affordable. If this requires legislation or regulation and it costs customers or taxpayers collectively, then this is not unreasonable. There is such a thing as society, and there is such a thing as spreading costs of infrastructure for the benefit of everyone: this is why, for example, BT were obliged to put payphones into remote locations. There is absolutely no reason why banks should not be asked to do the same.

    Remember, ATMs are already saving the banks money because they allowed them to close branches and reduce counter service. To then allow them to turn the screw further and make them into profitable income streams in their own right is really just handing the keys to the cookie jar over. Incidentally, one of the big attractions of charged ATMs is also that the money tends to get spent in the establishment that houses them: this is heavily promoted by the operators as a benefit, i.e. they get rental income as well as sales income.

    I think personally this blog entry has a lot to do with edging up the Martin Lewis MSE brand by saying something controversial and unexpected, and possibly could have been better considered. It certainly doesn't help those people campaigning against these stealth bank charges, which is a pity.
  • pmd
    pmd Posts: 65 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker
    It's the closure of Post Offices, not just in rural areas but in urban areas too, which makes ATM charges such an issue. The Government surely has an obligation to make people's benefits money accessible: even if people don't now need to go to a PO to collect their benefits, they need POs as the only free place to get cash from their bank account (assuming they've chosen that account wisely!). Same applies to other people needing access to their cash. Post Office closures are a disaster for many people and communities.
  • zar
    zar Posts: 284 Forumite
    pmd wrote:
    Post Office closures are a disaster for many people and communities.

    I definitely agree with this. Here's what CAB have to say on the matter,
    CAB wrote:
    Citizens Advice recommends that people should be able to open basic bank accounts in post office branches, and that all current account holders should be able to withdraw cash over the counter at Post Offices. If individual banks are unwilling to reach an agreement with Post Office Ltd to allow their customers to withdraw cash from the post office network, then Post Office Ltd should become a member of the LINK network to enable this to happen. The income generated from this venture could help to make a significant contribution towards sustaining the network of rural post offices which are a valuable community resource.

    Supporting this idea would be better than saying fee-paying cash machines are better than nothing - OK you might still want a fee-paying cash machine in a pub or something for when the post office is closed, but this is a much better idea for people in poor and/or rural communities. It kills two birds with one stone - the issue of post offices closing as people aren't using them enough, and the issue of having to pay to get money out via a bus or a machine when you can't really afford either. I know you can already do this with some banks, but a lot of pensioners etc. who have been with the same bank for years, or who haven't had a bank account at all until the benefit system changed would find it much simpler if they were told by a big advertising campaign that they could get cash out free from the post office (regardless of bank).
    :shhh: There's somewhere you can go and get books to read... for free!
    :coffee: Rediscover your local library! _party_
  • Tim_L
    Tim_L Posts: 3,816 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Interesting that the latest e-mail berates British Gas for raising prices twice in a year instead of absorbing the wholesale price rises. Certainly more than a little inconsistent.
  • MSE_Martin
    MSE_Martin Posts: 8,272 Money Saving Expert
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    British Gas had the benefit of an incumbent monopoly, British gas is the company taking the profits.

    When it comes to charging cash machines - they're not the bank's - they're private operators. There's a very important difference.

    I also thing you misread the blog slightly - the idea isn't 'the banks are good' - the idea is 'the banks are what they are - profit hungry institutions who we shouldn't assume any positive credence'.

    If we want those facilities we need to regulate to have them - or use the post office system. My explanation of the options wasn't to negate them - it was to explain them.

    As for courting controversy Tim - actually no media ever pick up my blog - it is just that - my blog.

    Martin :)
    Martin Lewis, Money Saving Expert.
    Please note, answers don't constitute financial advice, it is based on generalised journalistic research. Always ensure any decision is made with regards to your own individual circumstance.
    Don't miss out on urgent MoneySaving, get my weekly e-mail at www.moneysavingexpert.com/tips.
    Debt-Free Wannabee Official Nerd Club: (Honorary) Members number 000
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