advise on section 21 please!

worriedtenant

Fire_Fox wrote: »

5th to the 5th is two months and one day not two months! If you are on a periodic tenancy you are able to counter with your own notice of one month, or you could negotiate with the landlord to be released earlier than the 5th May - with your finals coming up I suspect this will be the best option for you. You may need to sign an AST of six months in your new home so the quicker you move the more benefit you will get from this.

As a student you probably don't have that many possessions so the physical act of moving should not be too time consuming, just take the first place that comes up even if it is a dump. Your university accommodation service may be able to support you finding a short let, even a space in halls. Try not to panic, keep all your tutors informed and use the 'mitigating circumstances' system if necessary. I am sure your parents will also be willing to help organise the move given your finals are imminent.

I have a flat full of possessions due to bereavement so not that easy! but thank you to everyone for your advice... Firefox, I'm afarid I don't really understand how my landlord has given us 2 months and 1 day's notice if we received the notice on the 6th and it gives us until the 5th May. surely that's not the full 2 months? (our rental period begins on the 7th and ends on the 6th of the following month)...

but yes, of course, you are all rigth in saying number 1 priority is to speak to the landlord - which I will do tomorrow morning (via the agent of course because he is a LL who doesn't like being contacted directly).. i will say, however, that he has been a rather unreasonable LL up unti now (mould growing on all our possessions, he didn't want to know - we told him we would contact environmental health because it was affectinng my parther's asthma, not to mention our stress levels, he threatened to evict is, we backed down. he is, essentially, a bully) so we are hardly the best of friends as it is!

We are due to move in July-ish anyway - my studies continue elsewhere - so I might suggest he gives us an extra 2 months grace. This is anotherr reason why I don't want to move - because it would be annoying and difficult to find somewhere for just 2 months until i was going to move elsewhere in the country anyway! I am even willing to suggest I put the next 3 months rent up front now to ensure I can stay here until i need to!

As for 'playing silly beggars' as some are suggesting, this is not the case. If he is allowed to throw us out without specifying a reason and giving an (ok, generous enough) 2 months notice, then I am allowed to ensure he does it properly!

I will speak to agent and plead and beg.

Fire_Fox

worriedtenant wrote: »

Hi,
His notice was served 5th march asking for the property to be vacant by 5th May... HOWEVER... we only received it by recorded delivery today (ie the 6th March)... does this mean that, through their own minor mistake, they have not given us the required 2 months (one day under) and therefore their claim will be dismissed in court?

eithern way, surely by posting it so it arrived yesterday (6th), not promptly on the 5th March, and asking for vacancy by 5th may, they're not giving us 2 months, so they're not fulfilling their part of the bargain and we could ignore it?!

worriedtenant wrote: »

I have a flat full of possessions due to bereavement so not that easy! but thank you to everyone for your advice... Firefox, I'm afarid I don't really understand how my landlord has given us 2 months and 1 day's notice if we received the notice on the 6th and it gives us until the 5th May. surely that's not the full 2 months? (our rental period begins on the 7th and ends on the 6th of the following month)...

You are suggesting the 6th to the 5th is one day under two months whereas it most definitely is exactly two months; the same principle as one full week (seven days) is Monday to Sunday NOT Monday to Monday. If you count the same day (date) twice you have one extra day: if you are more of a visual person you might find it easier to understand if you check on a calendar.

HOWEVER (as Franklee explained) although your landlord has served exactly two months notice the dates do not tally with your AST, and hence the notice to quit may be invalid. The reason I am so particular is that if a tenant stays one day too long they may be liable for another full month of rent.

franklee

Fire_Fox wrote: »

You are suggesting the 6th to the 5th is one day under two months whereas it most definitely is exactly two months; the same principle as one full week (seven days) is Monday to Sunday NOT Monday to Monday. If you count the same day (date) twice you have one extra day: if you are more of a visual person you might find it easier to understand if you check on a calendar.

HOWEVER (as Franklee explained) although your landlord has served exactly two months notice the dates do not tally with your AST, and hence the notice to quit may be invalid. The reason I am so particular is that if a tenant stays one day too long they may be liable for another full month of rent.

You are right, the 7th to the following month's 6th inclusive of both days is exactly one month, just as Monday to Sunday inclusive is exactly one week. But I think the notice needs to arrive before the month starts as if it encroaches on the month then less than a months notice has been given. Therefore I would think the notice needs to be deemed served on the 6th as to serve it at say 11am on the 7th it would fall short by a few hours.

Then we have the issue of exactly which day it's deemed served. For normal first class post I think it's deemed served the day after posting. It should seem a sensible precaution to be generous and allow adequate posting time. For recorded delivery it gets tricky so I'm not too sure on that.

Still as we agree this doesn't affect worriedtenant directly has his notice in invalid for a different reason.

franklee

worriedtenant wrote: »

We are due to move in July-ish anyway - my studies continue elsewhere - so I might suggest he gives us an extra 2 months grace. This is anotherr reason why I don't want to move - because it would be annoying and difficult to find somewhere for just 2 months until i was going to move elsewhere in the country anyway!

Good point most ASTs have a minium six months so finding somewhere for two months is going to be a pain. I'd stick it out in that case as you have a right to do.

worriedtenant

franklee wrote: »

You are right, the 7th to the following month's 6th inclusive of both days is exactly one month, just as Monday to Sunday inclusive is exactly one week. But I think the notice needs to arrive before the month starts as if it encroaches on the month then less than a months notice has been given. Therefore I would think the notice needs to be deemed served on the 6th as to serve it at say 11am on the 7th it would fall short by a few hours.

Then we have the issue of exactly which day it's deemed served. For normal first class post I think it's deemed served the day after posting. It should seem a sensible precaution to be generous and allow adequate posting time. For recorded delivery it gets tricky so I'm not too sure on that.

Still as we agree this doesn't affect worriedtenant directly has his notice in invalid for a different reason.

my understanding, which of course is limited in comparison to you guys I am sure, is more in line with FrankLee's - of course, i get that a week is monday to sunday not mon to mon, just as a month in my case is the 7th to the 6th. I still think it is wrong though... i guess what I really wanted to find out is whether or not it is wrong without having to go to a solicitor and pay to find out- CAB may be good for this i guess.

The letter was sent special delivery on friday 5th, to arrive the next day (which it did).

Fire_Fox

worriedtenant wrote: »

my understanding, which of course is limited in comparison to you guys I am sure, is more in line with FrankLee's - of course, i get that a week is monday to sunday not mon to mon, just as a month in my case is the 7th to the 6th. I still think it is wrong though... i guess what I really wanted to find out is whether or not it is wrong without having to go to a solicitor and pay to find out- CAB may be good for this i guess.

The letter was sent special delivery on friday 5th, to arrive the next day (which it did).

I apologise if I have confused matters I am not disagreeing with Franklee, only adding to his information. I would suggest you try the student accommodation department at your university who will probably have more time (and possibly be more able to give more specialised advice) than the CAB who are seriously stretched in the recession. Shelter are also a good bet.

franklee

Sorry for digressing into delivery dates, I think we were all just trying to be clear whilst agreeing.

worriedtenant, In your case, if the information you have posted about your tenancy is correct, then the notice needed to ask for possession after the 6th, not the 5th so your S21 is invalid. There is always the slim chance if it goes to court that a judge would overlook the details but that's always the case for anything and by then you'd be ready to move on anyway.

I'd guess if you point out the error, after next month to buy a bit more time if you want, your landlord would see and agree there was a mistake which you can then sweeten with offering a date on which you can be leaving. Unless of course there is any chance of him getting repossessed and there is no consent to let.

worriedtenant

all very good advice thank you! i wait with baited breath for the morning to come and normal office hours to resume!

leaving it a month or so and then pointing it out seems a good idea to buy some extra time... does that mean if they realise it is incorrect they have to do it again and the 2 months notice has to be granted all over again? I'm guessing it does otherwise there wouldn't be much point in doing that i guess.

its very complex, a combination of doing what's right for us but also not !!!!ing off the landlord/agency too much, because as people have commented getting full deposit back and references might prove difficult... if you have a section 21 presumably this doesn't put a 'black mark' against your name as a tenant for future lets?

franklee

worriedtenant wrote: »

leaving it a month or so and then pointing it out seems a good idea to buy some extra time... does that mean if they realise it is incorrect they have to do it again and the 2 months notice has to be granted all over again? I'm guessing it does otherwise there wouldn't be much point in doing that i guess.

Yes that's right a new S21 notice would need to be served, unless you and the LL agreed a surrender or you serve your own notice.

worriedtenant wrote: »

its very complex, a combination of doing what's right for us but also not !!!!ing off the landlord/agency too much, because as people have commented getting full deposit back and references might prove difficult... if you have a section 21 presumably this doesn't put a 'black mark' against your name as a tenant for future lets?

The S21 is a no fault notice, a notice the landlord can use regardless of a tenant's behaviour, so it isn't a black mark against a tenant. It may be a landlord uses it to evict a bad tenant but it sounds like that's not the case for you. You could ask the landlord why he's served it and pass that reason onto prospective landlords, but your landlord isn't obliged to give you any reasons why he served it.

Standing up for your rights over notice, disrepairs or anything at all could !!!! off the landlord, or the landlord could just be unreasonable anyway, it's a lottery. If you are worried about the reference can you also ask a previous landlord to give you a reference? Don't forget you can put your case to the new agent/landlord too and they are probably used to sifting what's reasonable in a reference and what's sour grapes. Also if the landlord gives you a bad reference it'll be harder for him to get rid of you as you won't have anywhere to go.

For the deposit do attend a checkout and photograph everything. You'd need to return the property to the same state as was documented and agreed in the inventory, less fair wear and tear. Presumably the deposit is protected in a tenancy deposit scheme? That makes it harder for the landlord to make unfair deductions.

10s

An s21 notice will often carry a statement following the 'expiry date'

This is deigned to allow for a mistake in the date specified. It would read something like
"Or the last day of a period of the tenancy next occurring following expiry of this notice."

Does your notice have similar?

Maybe your landlord specified the 5th with consideration that the 6th would become applicable.

I'm sure others will point out any errors of understanding.

The landlord can't evict, if you ignore the notice he must apply for the judge to order this, then for the bailiff to carry this out. He can claim the costs and rents from you.

I suggest you talk. Aim to agree a date of surrender, and try to agree on responsibilities ref property condition.