Solar panels and combi boiler - feasible?

Dead_Eye_Jones

Cardew wrote:

I have seen absolutely no proof that any form of alternative energy solar or wind is an economic proposition and this is a money saving site.

Having had the opportunity of studying in one of our country's leading environmental labs I can assure you there is plenty of proof regarding global climate change and even basic common sense tells us non-renewable energy sources will run out by definition.

The economic proposition is a long term one, fuels will run out, climate change will occur, we are not scaremongering - this is really happening. Yeah lets all ignore it and then the UK will nolonger be inhabitable and global conflict over the remaining resources will escalate beyond your comprehension, your bank balance wont look too healthy when your bank collapses, the economy wont look too hot when much of the country is underwater and/or the budget is spent protecting supply lines for the remaining drops of Middle Eastern Oil.

I think what you mean is that there is no direct short term ecomomic benefit to you, and why should you care, you'll be dead before all this happens. Have a think about the ecomomic benefits to your children, their Children, etc.

The message isnt getting through, its frightening. Too little too late.

paul_h

Dead_Eye_Jones wrote:

The economic proposition is a long term one, fuels will run out, climate change will occur, we are not scaremongering - this is really happening. Yeah lets all ignore it and then the UK will nolonger be inhabitable and global conflict over the remaining resources will escalate beyond your comprehension, your bank balance wont look too healthy when your bank collapses, the economy wont look too hot when much of the country is underwater and/or the budget is spent protecting supply lines for the remaining drops of Middle Eastern Oil.

What you are saying is certainly not beyond the realms of fantasy. However, what Cardew is saying is entirely correct - the ongoing debate was about financial viability, and some argue that installing solar panels will save you money over their relatively short to medium term lifespan.

I agree that more should be done to reduce our dependency upon fossil fuels, but currently there is no real viable alternative apart from nuclear for our current levels of usage. I still don't believe this will be reduced significantly in the short to medium term.

It amazes me how many people are opposed to wind turbines but will not take steps to reduce their energy usage. Living next to a coal fired power station, I can tell you that living next to a wind farm would be infinitely preferable. Even nuclear stations have less local impact IMHO, and virtually zero carbon emissions. People are quite happy to use ever increasing amounts of energy, but forget that it always has some environmental impact.

Anyway, I think this has gone a little off thread!;)

jonnyw_2

If someone makes two statements and it can be shown that one is false, it makes me less likely to believe the other on trust

Cardew

Skiduck wrote:

selective reading?

Not selective reading, nothing you have shown me remotely demonstrates where you will get a payback of £6,000 in 15 years.

Spell it out please. Remember to allow for the interest on borrowing £6,000. The sites you show seem to ‘forget’ about this factor.

And with regards another posters issue of DHW usage, we serviced a hot water cylinder for a family 2 weeks a go, they use £95 to heat their hot water per month

Now if my maths is correct £95 a month is £1,140 per year to heat hot water?. not CH. What fuel were they using?

Very roughly for Gas that would equate to 38,000 kWh, 28,000 kWh for oil. The average is 5,000 kWh

Solar in an oil central heating system tends to save an average of 1000 litres per year, check out your local supplier for price per liter at the moment. Our local supplier is @ 34.97 pence per litre, so without any further increases (which would be impossible) after 9 years, you save £3150.

Paul_h has commented adequately on the inaccuracy of that statement. However even if a family was using approx 4 times the average energy to heat their hot water, how do you come to the figure of a solar system saving 1,000 liters? I think we all agree that is a little over 10,000 kWh. Perhaps 8-9,000 kWh if you take into account boiler efficiency.

In the Solarkent(Generys) site you quoted as a great example, Simon has a much bigger system than normal(3 panels instead of 2 and a larger water tank). Even with this large system he produced 4,395 kWh in a 12 month period; and it is doubtful if most household would use all of the hot water he produced in the summer months.

So a larger system than normal produces 4,395 kWh per year and yet you claim the average is 8-9,000 kWh.

Skiduck

Cardew wrote:

Not selective reading, nothing you have shown me remotely demonstrates where you will get a payback of £6,000 in 15 years.

Spell it out please. Remember to allow for the interest on borrowing £6,000. The sites you show seem to ‘forget’ about this factor.



Now if my maths is correct £95 a month is £1,140 per year to heat hot water?. not CH. What fuel were they using?

Very roughly for Gas that would equate to 38,000 kWh, 28,000 kWh for oil. The average is 5,000 kWh



Paul_h has commented adequately on the inaccuracy of that statement. However even if a family was using approx 4 times the average energy to heat their hot water, how do you come to the figure of a solar system saving 1,000 liters? I think we all agree that is a little over 10,000 kWh. Perhaps 8-9,000 kWh if you take into account boiler efficiency.

In the Solarkent(Generys) site you quoted as a great example, Simon has a much bigger system than normal(3 panels instead of 2 and a larger water tank). Even with this large system he produced 4,395 kWh in a 12 month period; and it is doubtful if most household would use all of the hot water he produced in the summer months.

So a larger system than normal produces 4,395 kWh per year and yet you claim the average is 8-9,000 kWh.

he is using a log burner, so it's purely immersion heater during the summer. Shall I call the customer a liar, because that is what he said to me.

BTW, stop fixating on a solar system being £6,000, this is not the case as I have already told you.

I am wondering whether you are working for an oil company or not?

Cardew

Skiduck wrote:

he is using a log burner, so it's purely immersion heater during the summer. Shall I call the customer a liar, because that is what he said to me.

BTW, stop fixating on a solar system being £6,000, this is not the case as I have already told you.

I am wondering whether you are working for an oil company or not?

You are getting a complex! I just asked asked what fuel he was using to use £95 a month for HW.

Re fixating on £6,000. This is your quote from earlier in this thread:

you need to also take into account, fuel increases, boiler servicing costs, boiler replacement cost etc. These are all variables that control the payback time schedule.
£6000 will take 15 to 16 years to reach paybeack -

are you now saying that was incorrect?

I note you avoided the point on the average saving being 1,000 liters

Skiduck

Cardew wrote:

You are getting a complex! I just asked asked what fuel he was using to use £95 a month for HW.

Re fixating on £6,000. This is your quote from earlier in this thread:



are you now saying that was incorrect?

I note you avoided the point on the average saving being 1,000 liters

No, that is no incorrect, but It was not me that stated their system cost £6000 was it?

I explained they should cost half than that didn't I? or are you forgetting that?

"I" did not come up with a figure of 1000litres, a Belfast Council Case Study did, or did you miss that bit?

Cardew

Dead_Eye_Jones wrote:

I think what you mean is that there is no direct short term ecomomic benefit to you, and why should you care, you'll be dead before all this happens. Have a think about the ecomomic benefits to your children, their Children, etc.

.

It is most certainly not what I mean.

How people approach environmental issues is another completely different subject.

If someone wants to spend money on alternative energy, that is their prerogative. However these systems are touted by an unscrupulous industry as money saving investments and they are most definitely not.

Skiduck

Cardew wrote:

It is most certainly not what I mean.

How people approach environmental issues is another completely different subject.

If someone wants to spend money on alternative energy, that is their prerogative. However these systems are touted by an unscrupulous industry as money saving investments and they are most definitely not.

So you include all heating engineers, plumbers, boiler manufacturers, government agencies, wholesale merchants, environmental groups etc in that group?

To try and put this to bed a bit, here's a simple rule of thumb showing usage, viability and environmental conscience:


single person/childless couple, 2/3 bed house/flat - don't even consider solar unless on environmental grounds.

couple 2.4 children 4 bed house (average mucky kids) cold water feed washing machine- solar is considerable, leaning more to environmental grounds than econmonic viablitiy.

Couple 2-5 kids, 4/5 bed house, hot and cold feed washing machine - solar would be viable economically.

New builds - always consider solar, especially After April 2007 when it will be law to have some kind of sustainable resource.


REMEMBER, this is a rule of thumb, one that I use - along with many heating engineers, one that the unscrupulous companies don't use (they don't care how much hot water you use. Anyone selling you solar must ask you what your DHW is, if they don't, show them the door, they obviously aren't interested in your usage or finances.
ALSO a system should only cost upto £3500, unless you are buying the creme de la creme of evacuated tubes, however this is pointless if you want to save money.

And finally, my company would not survive on "hit and run tactics" which is why, whoever the client is, they get what they need, rather than what they want, we will advise them if they are choosing the wrong technology, be it solar, water softener, boiler etc - after all, there is no point in fitting a boiler when they don't want yopu back through there door to do their annual service, new bathroom etc etc.

Cardew

Skiduck wrote:

No, that is no incorrect, but It was not me that stated their system cost £6000 was it?

I explained they should cost half than that didn't I? or are you forgetting that?

"I" did not come up with a figure of 1000litres, a Belfast Council Case Study did, or did you miss that bit?

You didn't come up with the figure of £6,000 but YOU stated it that it would be paid back in 15-16 years.

Similarly YOU gave the figure as 1,000 liters in support of your argument.


In March 2006 you stated:

A question please; are you still involved in selling 'alternative' energy?

yes, I have jumped the other side of the fence to work with one of my old customers.

You are a proponent of the solar industry and sell their products; so you cannot have it both ways. If you make or support statements on the financial viability of Solar energy on this forum, you must be prepared to defend them.

I have to say you are making a pretty poor job of doing so.