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Current Account Charges - Why I have no sympathy

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  • Dammam
    Dammam Posts: 349 Forumite
    I have officially given up. But I will tell you my thoughts on what you have said.

    "1. They should charge you a fee (I agree the fee was too high) because you have contracted your suppliers to take money from your bank account in payment for the services they provide you with. They cannot take any money because you have not got any in there. Therefore, someone has to intervein. Someone then has to send you a letter. The charge has to be sent back as 'unpaid' to the supplier etc etc."

    The fact that you agree that the 'fee' is too high suggests that you are broadly in agreement that this really ought to be stopped.
    When I asked for SOME money back, I asked for examples of any intervention that had been made on my account. I also stated that I did not require any confirmation in writing that money had not been paid as I could see this for myself quite easily online. If I try to draw money on my credit or debit card and there is nothing in my account, it simply gives the card back - thankfully they haven't tried charging for this yet. I'll grant you that I may be missing something here, but is there a £30+ difference between this and not paying a direct debit?
    Needless to say, the Bank wouldn't tell me of any manual intervention on my account and continued to send letters telling me what I already knew.

    "2. It is not a private matter. You have told your supplier to take money from your bank, therefore, involving your bank in your finanicial outgoings. It's got everything to do with the bank."

    And when the request gets to the Bank, they say "no, can't pay". Simple.

    "3. As per the terms and conditions of your bank account which you signed up to, you agreed, by signing about the charges and penalties of such an outcome. "

    When I joined the Bank, I was a 17 year old recruit about to be shipped to the Falklands. I had no idea what was legal, illegal, right, wrong or anything else - the Air Force told me I HAD to have a Bank account and gave me a choice of 3. I've since found that these fines were illegal - surely it's my right to have returned what was taken from me?

    "4. The bank should make up their mind as to whether you have an overdraft or not? Christ, case for more complaints there when they decide to give you an overdraft and you go down the route of 'the bank made me shiver in my blanket which had holes in it because the bank took money from me and I had to eat my blanket'. No no no. YOU either ask for an overdraft or you don't. "

    I asked for an increase in my overdraft as I was going to be a week late getting my money in. I said I only need it for a week, they said it's a 6 month minimum arrangement. Then they refused it!

    "5. EVERYONE should have a rainy day fund! Thats one of the first steps to being financially savvy! If you had a rainy day fund, i.e. if you had some money to pay for stuff you had used, then the bank simply would NOT have taken any money, please, just stop blaming the bank for your oversights!!"

    My rainy day fund had a particularly hard time - it rained to Biblical proportions. What I had left was then taken up by the continual spiral of bank charges leaving no money in the bank to pay bills resulting in bank charges etc.

    "6. Your wages....dunno how many times I have to tell you, employers fault not yours. BUT! It's NOT your employers fault that you haven't got any other funds. You said not too long back you ran your own business, what about funds from there? And if you don't keep at least a couple of hunded for business purposes kept back god help you."

    I wont comment on somebody elses particular case. I would say that if you choose to blaspheme, it's probably best to use a capital G in God. I'm agnostic, but we'll call that my rainy day fund for the hereafter :-)

    "Your responsible mate, not the bank, not your employers and not your neighbours or the shop down the road. I suggest you dont pay by DD if this is the way you want to live, i.e. not planning for anything. Then, you pay by cheque when you know you have the funds."

    They took away my chequebook when I (successfully) sued them. We're all responsible for our DD's, SO's, Cheques etc. The whole point is that the Banks do NOT have the authority to fine you for doing it badly. They can make you reimburse their costs and they can close your account, but not show what a naughty boy (or girl) you've been by taking a nice big wad of your money.
    I found it amusing that they NEVER threatened me with account closure or asked me to return my cheque book when I had problems. But as soon as the problems were behind me and I asked them to return my money they took the cheque book away.

    "Damn! I'm lost for words!! What is it that stops you getting yout head around the fact that if you had the overdraft YOU WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE CHARGES or if you had a rainy day fund YOU WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE CHARGES."

    Probably the fact that if the Banks had operated within the law YOU WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE CHARGES.

    My take added above.
  • dchurch24
    dchurch24 Posts: 1,219 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I would encourage it right now, regardles of the charges issue being resolved.

    I agree that if you are right 'up against it' then you ought to be looking at your money a fair bit more carefully than those who are not perhaps, and try not to get charged in the first place.

    However, I believe that most people (if not all) do not want to be charged at all - and the fact that they are pushes them from an already tight situation into one of dispair, and a point where people cannot bring themselves to even so much as get a bank balance.

    The fact that what has been happening, IMO, is unlawful helps. It means that as consumers we can do something about it.

    I think there's a term for it - although I can't remember what it is. It was reported on a while back in the news. People who can't open envelopes in the morning in case it's a bank statement. Truly burying heads in the sand.

    People who are in that situation - and there are many - need helping, not kicking when they are down making matters worse.

    People have been known to commit suicide over debts. I wonder how many of those had debts that were caused in some part at least by bank charges?

    The cost of everything has risen in this country over the past few years - some things drastically and others not so. All of the things I can think of have gone up faster than the rate of inflation and certainly faster than the average wage.

    These are things that cannot have been foreseen and budgeted for. If you are already at 95-100% of your wages each month, then there's not a lot of room to move. It's not always about bad money management, just not enough money in the majority of cases.

    One or two bank charges can create a spiral which is seemingly impossible to get out of.

    Should people be effectively punished by a private institution because of the state of the economy?

    I don't think so.

    This makes things very difficult for a lot of people. I've had many people say to me "I can't afford to go to work", and when I have looked at their finances and the costs of going to work, it has astounded me to find that they are telling the truth.

    It's a dangerous situation for a country to be in, and the bank charges thing is only the tip of the iceberg, although I would imagine not a small part in the record number of bancruptcies that we are now seeing.
  • Tim_L
    Tim_L Posts: 3,827 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Mark7799 wrote:
    Tim,

    I'm not sure if you were responsing to my post #277 but if you were your second paragraph obscures the issue (unreserved apologies if you weren't) My point is IF (and I accept there is a big IF) a charge could be legally proven as fair and reasonable, what attitude will then be taken by those who are campaigning against the level of these charges now in respect of encouraging money management?

    I think there are two separate issues here.

    Obviously good money management is to be encouraged (but perhaps the banks and credit card companies would be less enthusiastic about it than many here, since they make a good deal of money from their customers' bad financial management and to a great degree encourage it). And yes, basic money management should be taught in schools.

    However in many cases the issue is not really lack of money management but rather lack of money for whatever reason. It's all very well to suggest that people should build up a contingency fund, but in many cases this simply is not possible, or even where it exists it can't be moved into an account quickly enough to solve a temporary problem because of the 4 day BACs cycle.
  • dchurch24
    dchurch24 Posts: 1,219 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    (but perhaps the banks and credit card companies would be less enthusiastic about it than many here, since they make a good deal of money from their customers' bad financial management and to a great degree encourage it).


    Indeed. Abbey's on-line banking does not update at weekends. The cashpoint machine (for Abbey accounts) quotes 'uncleared' payments as drawable.

    One Saturday, I got one balance from the on-line banking system, one balance from a cash machine and another from a bank teller.

    All three were different. Thankfully, I knew how much I had, and that is why I queried it in the first place, when my figure differed from that of the on-line banking system.

    How is it possible to budget and manage money properly when faced with that?

    Yes, keep a notebook. This is after all, the 21st century.

    Banks make BILLIONS and BILLIONS of pounds, and charge us for many things - there is no free banking in reality - yet, are very reluctant to update systems to a point where we might have a banking system to rival that of Sweden or indeed many other countries that do not rely on money quite as much as us.

    To upgrade their systems so that everyone can get an up-to-date balance at any time would not cost billions - a few million certainly. If one bank did this, I would jump ship to them instantly, as I would imagine, many others.

    It would be cost effective to do so, apart from the fact that more people would know what state their account was in at any one time and accidents would occur less, meaning less people they can levy unlawful charges on.

    ...and there lies the true reason why they won't do anything about it.
  • Dammam
    Dammam Posts: 349 Forumite
    Mark7799, I don't think anyone has a problem with the Banks making reasonable charges within the law. I also think that anyone reading this who has money problems has already taken the first steps to being more financially aware simply by coming to a site like this one.

    I'm familiar with the view that people who have been unable to look after their own affairs are in some way deficient and pathetic and beyond contempt - it's the view I myself had for many years. It's only after I fell into the same pit as them that I realised that there are always two sides to every story. For all the heartache and trouble that my financial problems caused me, I like to think that I'm now a better person for having had the first hand knowledge of what it's actually like. I evangelise about claiming back your money as I feel it at least gives some of these people an OPPORTUNITY to get themselves sorted. Some will never learn of course, but does that mean we should neglect those that can?

    And thanks for asking your questions in a sensible, non-confrontational way. It proves to others that intelligent debate can be made without name calling exasperation. I fear that some people just like to argue, no matter what the case :-(
  • Mark7799
    Mark7799 Posts: 4,805 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Tim_L wrote:
    I think there are two separate issues here.

    Obviously good money management is to be encouraged (but perhaps the banks and credit card companies would be less enthusiastic about it than many here, since they make a good deal of money from their customers' bad financial management and to a great degree encourage it). And yes, basic money management should be taught in schools.

    However in many cases the issue is not really lack of money management but rather lack of money for whatever reason. It's all very well to suggest that people should build up a contingency fund, but in many cases this simply is not possible, or even where it exists it can't be moved into an account quickly enough to solve a temporary problem because of the 4 day BACs cycle.

    The latter point is straightforward to resolve - a rainy day/contingency fund with the same provider as a customer's current account where it can be moved immediately without the BACS cycle. If the customer needs immediate access it should be kept as close as possible - not moved somewhere else for maybe an extra 0.5% interest when all potential gains would be wiped out if it couldn't be accessed quickly enough.

    We can debate the first point in your last paragraph interminably and reasons are probably way outside this thread, peer pressure, consumerism as well as genuine financial need.
    Gwlad heb iaith, gwlad heb galon
  • Mark7799
    Mark7799 Posts: 4,805 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Dammam wrote:
    Mark7799, I don't think anyone has a problem with the Banks making reasonable charges within the law. I also think that anyone reading this who has money problems has already taken the first steps to being more financially aware simply by coming to a site like this one.

    I'm familiar with the view that people who have been unable to look after their own affairs are in some way deficient and pathetic and beyond contempt - it's the view I myself had for many years. It's only after I fell into the same pit as them that I realised that there are always two sides to every story. For all the heartache and trouble that my financial problems caused me, I like to think that I'm now a better person for having had the first hand knowledge of what it's actually like. I evangelise about claiming back your money as I feel it at least gives some of these people an OPPORTUNITY to get themselves sorted. Some will never learn of course, but does that mean we should neglect those that can?

    And thanks for asking your questions in a sensible, non-confrontational way. It proves to others that intelligent debate can be made without name calling exasperation. I fear that some people just like to argue, no matter what the case :-(

    Thanks,

    The reason that I raised the point is that when a resolution is found to these issues there is still likely to be the question of people paying bank charges in some form or other. As this is a money-saving site, we will still need to find ways to minimise these charges for everyone - I happen to believe that personal education can have a big role to play in that - you won't get it from the Banks, they are more concerned with hitting sales targets - and therefore places like this site and CAG need to be vehicles that offer sensible advice that all can benefit from.
    Gwlad heb iaith, gwlad heb galon
  • Dammam
    Dammam Posts: 349 Forumite
    The best way of helping people understand the importance of financial planning is for we, as parents, to be completely open and honest about it all to our children. When my lad is old enough, I'm going to show him EXACTLY what can happen if the brown stuff hits the fan.
    Debt in all forms will be with us for quite some time yet, whether illegal charges are finally stopped or not. At that point education is the only avenue left.

    If there was a bank that simply didn't pay if there was no money - like the cashpoint does(n't), then I'd probably want to join it. I'd probably even pay £5 per month membership fee just so there were no bankers having to sleep rough.
  • dchurch24
    dchurch24 Posts: 1,219 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I second that.
  • polajoo
    polajoo Posts: 30 Forumite
    Dammam wrote:
    If there was a bank that simply didn't pay if there was no money - like the cashpoint does(n't), then I'd probably want to join it.

    That used to be the way my Halifax account operated, before I turned 18. Then, when it became legal for me to get credit, they gave it to me even when I didn't ask for it (knowingly).

    I too suffered from that different-balances-from-different-devices scenario. Only I had no idea what I had.

    The only way I could go into an unauthorised overdraft was when I bought something for £3.62 (for example) which is below the "floor limit" for checking to see if a balance is available. This varies from shop to shop (IIRC) and some shops will ask your card issuer if there is money available for every over 1p.

    However, every card is checked to see if it is blacklisted, so why can they not check to see if there's balance at the same time, for the sake of an extra second of connection?

    What was that? They wouldn't be able to fine us for going overdrawn then? Oh, I see. :rolleyes:
    semper in faecibvs svmvm, sole profvndvm variat
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