60 Economists support delaying cuts.....

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Kohoutek wrote: »

But where's that growth going to come from,

Companies doing more business. :rolleyes:

when 70% of the economy is based on services,

So what? Services are needed as much as products.

taxes are soon going up, ,

Yes, but not by a lot.

and consumers need to save more, not spend more?

Actually, consumers need to spend more, not save more.

See "The Paradox of Thrift"..... Saving impoverishes us all.....

Last time I looked, our financial sector wasn't doing too well either.

Doing better than it was.

I don't think manufacturing can take over as the engine of the economy for several years if it ever does.

What is with the obsession with manufacturing?

We are still the worlds 6th biggest manufacturer, but mass manufacture of consumer goods in this country is dead. And good riddance.

Kohoutek

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Actually, consumers need to spend more, not save more.

I know they do, but I think that's going to be hard with rising unemployment, rising taxes and record highs in terms of existing levels of personal debt. Equity withdrawal/remortgaging isn't going to provide wealth to spend in the economy either anymore.

moggylover

Kohoutek wrote: »

Have you ever seen spend/print your way out of a budget deficit work either? It didn't work for Argentina, it didn't work for Zimbabwe, why are we so special?

TBH - we aren't! However, some 20 odd years of monetarist policy and free reign for the greedy is not going to be an easy one to counteract without those LEAST to blame for the mess being the ones to suffer!

If you've been awake for the last 13 years, you'll have noticed that privatisation has continued under New Labour, not to mention PFI projects that will cost the taxpayer tens of billions. Labour has been enthusiastic about globalisation (i.e. the loss of tens of thousands of British jobs). We've become a more unequal society than under Thatcher's Britain as a result of this period.

I don't believe that we have become any more unequal in the last 13 years! I think that the inequalities have just become more visible.

Privatisation, deficit spending and a bubble economy built on expanding consumer debt is what created the 'prosperity' under New Labour, just like North Sea oil and the original round of privatisation made our terrible economy look good under Thatcher.

Labour has already laid out plans for slash and burn – local authorities are announcing thousands of job cuts, higher education budget cuts will cost 15,000 jobs. It's a reflection of the seriousness of our current situation – continuing to deficit spend £200 billion a year would be utterly insane.

But, the last lot of slash and burn left us with a huge number of people unemployed and that has never been truly reduced because quite honestly those with the dosh to invest would rather exploit those in the emerging World because the profit margin is just so vastly larger!

There are absolutely NO easy answers unless those much vaunted "productive" rich get of their backsides and actually put something back! Not in taxes or benefits: but in well paid work and businesses for the UK.

However, if you read back a couple of posts, you will see that I confirmed that I was a socialist and thus not a Nu-labour fan;) Don't actually think there is much of a choice at an election nowadays: Torys with a slight conscience or Torys without any conscience at all - no wonder we are fooked:D

moggylover

peterg1965 wrote: »

Perhaps the Union leaders and their 'brothers' would have made a better go of it then?

Well be honest: they could hardly have done it worse than either of the last two parties now could they:D

moggylover

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Companies doing more business. :rolleyes:




So what? Services are needed as much as products.



Yes, but not by a lot.



Actually, consumers need to spend more, not save more.

See "The Paradox of Thrift"..... Saving impoverishes us all.....



Doing better than it was.



What is with the obsession with manufacturing?

We are still the worlds 6th biggest manufacturer, but mass manufacture of consumer goods in this country is dead. And good riddance.

Now that was the first post of yours I had ever wanted to thank until you b*ggered it up with the last sentence!:D

stueyhants

Moggylover "I don't believe that we have become any more unequal in the last 13 years! I think that the inequalities have just become more visible."

I'm afraid the stats don't support your argument. Labour has increased income inequality and reduced social mobility over the last decade.

baileysbattlebus

stueyhants wrote: »

Moggylover "I don't believe that we have become any more unequal in the last 13 years! I think that the inequalities have just become more visible."

I'm afraid the stats don't support your argument. Labour has increased income inequality and reduced social mobility over the last decade.

I agree income equality has got bigger over the years - and will continue to get bigger - it's the nature of a deregulated economy, don't you think?

You just have to listen to the news or read some of the threads on this board - banks threatening to move employees overseas to evade the tax on bonuses - companies such as Unilever threatening to relocate over taxes. The very rich being able to pay less in taxes due to tax havens/non domicile status etc.

The anger seen on here seen over people who receive Working Tax Credits/Child Tax Credits. The majority seem to want them stopped. And that's not including feelings over other benefit recipients.

People don't want income redistribution, they want their own income and they want to retain as much of it as possible.

I do think the government has lifted people out of real poverty - but there is a big difference between poverty and income inequality. The poor aren't quite as poor and the rich continue to get richer.

lemonjelly

peterg1965 wrote: »

But of course, the Tories 'had' me from when I joined the Young Conservatives back in 1983

That sounds painful!:eek:

lemonjelly

baileysbattlebus wrote: »

I agree income equality has got bigger over the years - and will continue to get bigger - it's the nature of a deregulated economy, don't you think?

You just have to listen to the news or read some of the threads on this board - banks threatening to move employees overseas to evade the tax on bonuses - companies such as Unilever threatening to relocate over taxes. The very rich being able to pay less in taxes due to tax havens/non domicile status etc.

The anger seen on here seen over people who receive Working Tax Credits/Child Tax Credits. The majority seem to want them stopped. And that's not including feelings over other benefit recipients.

People don't want income redistribution, they want their own income and they want to retain as much of it as possible.

I do think the government has lifted people out of real poverty - but there is a big difference between poverty and income inequality. The poor aren't quite as poor and the rich continue to get richer.

Completely correct, & in line with much of what I've posted already on this thread.

Multi nationals have, for some time, spent a considerable amount of time reducing overheads. As a result, many operations are now abroad (cheaper), export zones are set up, tax systems are fiddled with to "encourage" investment. Problem is, this investment only benefits the corporation. The country bringing the business in see wage deflation, & reducaed tax incomes owing to the benefits/incentives given to business', plus the reduced wages its citizens receive!

In so called developed countries, we have seen skill levels fall, & a significant increase in the volume of part time work. Families who used to have a main wage earner, now may have 2 part timers instead.

Agencies have taken on the role of HR depts - again a saving for the business - no HR costs! We appear happy to accept this, despite the fact that it erodes so many employment rights it has taken decades to obtain! Also, there are knock on job security issues here.

buglawton

winged_avenger wrote: »

....To get the UKs sorry backside out of this horrendous mess that it is in, manufacturing needs to be ramped up by a huge amount. The elephant in the corner is China. Anyone who has visited China will realise that these guys mean serious business and how does anyone propose that we increase manufacturing ...

Nice and rather believable article in today's The Register:
The myth of Britain's manufacturing decline