'Would you work or claim benefit?' poll discussion

amus

cit_k wrote: »

Technically, you are not always allowed an opinion, not if you work for the DWP, and you make that clear, which you do... You have read the civil service code surely?

You know, the one, that says you must

So releasing any details of things you come across in your job, which are confidential, is not allowed. , and you know its a hot political issue, which is also something civil servants are not allowed to get involved in, political issues....


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Yawn. Bored now. Anyone can see you're clutching at straws. By the way, civil servants ARE allowed any opinion they want, they just have to carry out their job objectively which I do. You do know civil servants are entitled to vote as well right......
"You know you cant therefore provide proof for anything you say relating to benefit fraudsters"
Yes unfortuanately thats true but I dont see how this dampens my argument, as Ive said I base my opinion on things I see and my own personal circumstance, not flawed statistics.
I DONT BASE MY OPINION ON WHAT ATOS SAY I BASE MY OPINION ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND HEARED SO FOR GOODNESS SAKE STOP GOING ON ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU HATE ATOS AND HOW FLAWED THEY ARE- I DONT CARE - I DONT WORK FOR THEM. THE ONLY REASON I ENGAGED IN AN ARGUMENT CONCERNING ATOS WAS TO CORRECT YOU WITH SOME COLD HARD FACTS BECAUSE YOU WERE TRYING TO PRESENT YOUR OPINIONS OF ATOS AS FACT for example when you stated something along the lines of I need to learn more about my job because I should know ATOS dont take into account a patients medical history (of course I do know about my job and I know that ATOS do take into account a patients medical history, both in the medical report and by writing to patients doctors) just an EXAMPLE for you.

andyandflo

amus wrote: »

Yawn. Bored now. Anyone can see you're clutching at straws. By the way, civil servants ARE allowed any opinion they want, they just have to carry out their job objectively which I do. You do know civil servants are entitled to vote as well right......
"You know you cant therefore provide proof for anything you say relating to benefit fraudsters"
Yes unfortuanately thats true but I dont see how this dampens my argument, as Ive said I base my opinion on things I see and my own personal circumstance, not flawed statistics.
I DONT BASE MY OPINION ON WHAT ATOS SAY I BASE MY OPINION ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND HEARED SO FOR GOODNESS SAKE STOP GOING ON ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU HATE ATOS AND HOW FLAWED THEY ARE- I DONT CARE - I DONT WORK FOR THEM. THE ONLY REASON I ENGAGED IN AN ARGUMENT CONCERNING ATOS WAS TO CORRECT YOU WITH SOME COLD HARD FACTS BECAUSE YOU WERE TRYING TO PRESENT YOUR OPINIONS OF ATOS AS FACT for example when you stated something along the lines of I need to learn more about my job because I should know ATOS dont take into account a patients medical history (of course I do know about my job and I know that ATOS do take into account a patients medical history, both in the medical report and by writing to patients doctors) just an EXAMPLE for you.

Hi, well on this matter, the ATOS assessor did not take notice of any medical report - no one has ever asked my GP or Consultant for one!
His opinion was based on that I could walk, unaided 20 metres and therefore assumes that I can walk a lot further, that I could not take off my overcoat without assistance (and I asked him to help!) he failed me in that I refused to carry out the tests!! As regards medical history - ummm - did I miss that one! The questions he asked required a yes or no answer. I tried to explain further but he jumped to something else.

andyandflo

Oooops sorry forgot to add this little bit - Why are there four boxes on the points awarded notification document from the DM? Only two ticked - ESA50 and the ATOS report were used to come to the decision. The other two relate to independent reports obtained. Surely it's not my job to run round getting reports from all and sundry? For the life of me I cannot understand why the DM does not use his grey matter - call for reports from all four sources and then and only then use them to make a balanced decision??
I have never seen a letter from my consultant - why should I? That goes on between him and my GP. I just get told at my OP appointments as to what is to happen. For goodness sake, why should I have to do the job for the DWP???

cit_k

andyandflo wrote: »

Oooops sorry forgot to add this little bit - Why are there four boxes on the points awarded notification document from the DM? Only two ticked - ESA50 and the ATOS report were used to come to the decision. The other two relate to independent reports obtained. Surely it's not my job to run round getting reports from all and sundry? For the life of me I cannot understand why the DM does not use his grey matter - call for reports from all four sources and then and only then use them to make a balanced decision??
I have never seen a letter from my consultant - why should I? That goes on between him and my GP. I just get told at my OP appointments as to what is to happen. For goodness sake, why should I have to do the job for the DWP???

Well according to Amus, you dont have to, ATOS does it all, despite the fact we know they usually dont.

andyandflo

cit_k wrote: »

Well according to Amus, you dont have to, ATOS does it all, despite the fact we know they usually dont.

Ah yes, so I have been short changed then!! Or did they think that my GP is OK in sorting out warts, and my consultant is so involved with his private practice that he wouldn't bother to reply anyhow as there would be nothing in it for him?

amus

andyandflo wrote: »

Oooops sorry forgot to add this little bit - Why are there four boxes on the points awarded notification document from the DM? Only two ticked - ESA50 and the ATOS report were used to come to the decision. The other two relate to independent reports obtained. Surely it's not my job to run round getting reports from all and sundry? For the life of me I cannot understand why the DM does not use his grey matter - call for reports from all four sources and then and only then use them to make a balanced decision??
I have never seen a letter from my consultant - why should I? That goes on between him and my GP. I just get told at my OP appointments as to what is to happen. For goodness sake, why should I have to do the job for the DWP???

Because if you want to claim benefit thats what you have to do! Why the hell do customers think we should run around after them all the time? Dont you get enough of taxpayers money. Thats like me saying why doesnt my manager come and get me up out of bed every morning to go to work. If I didnt get up myself Id get no money so thats why I set my alarm. If you cant be arsed getting medical evidence when requested you dont get money - simple as. Take responsibility for yourself for Gods sake. Would you like someone to wipe your a**e aswell? As Ive said Im answering no further questions surrounding ATOS and the decision making process Ive said all I need to say, stated all the FACTS and whether you choose to believe them or not is up to you, it makes not one iota of difference to me.

amus

andyandflo wrote: »

Hi, well on this matter, the ATOS assessor did not take notice of any medical report - no one has ever asked my GP or Consultant for one!
His opinion was based on that I could walk, unaided 20 metres and therefore assumes that I can walk a lot further, that I could not take off my overcoat without assistance (and I asked him to help!) he failed me in that I refused to carry out the tests!! As regards medical history - ummm - did I miss that one! The questions he asked required a yes or no answer. I tried to explain further but he jumped to something else.

Oh yeah, forgot to add - I DONT WORK FOR ATOS (if I hadnt already made that perfectly clear). Ask them why they never sent the form to your GP to fill in they should have. Whether they do their job properly is not my responsibility and is not something which I have the power to change. Tell you what, ring your local office and ask for a copy of your ESA85 (thats your medical report from ATOS). Then you will see exactly what the Dr has written and exactly what headings are on it, I can guarantee you medical/condition history is one of them.

amus

cit_k wrote: »

Well according to Amus, you dont have to, ATOS does it all, despite the fact we know they usually dont.

STOP TRYING TO MISQUOTE ME! I never said ATOS does everything and the customer can just do nothing, I said ATOS write to customers GP's with a form to fill out asking about a customers medical history - thats it! I see these forms everyday because GP's sometimes send them back to us and I have to forward them to ATOS. If customers want to support their claim they should get whatever evidence they can and send it in (especially at recon stage) - fact is most cant be bothered (andyandflo - perfect example) Didnt even have to break the civil service code to back up my argument there - it was posted for all to see!!

Jomo

amus wrote: »

Because if you want to claim benefit thats what you have to do! Why the hell do customers think we should run around after them all the time? Dont you get enough of taxpayers money. Thats like me saying why doesnt my manager come and get me up out of bed every morning to go to work. If I didnt get up myself Id get no money so thats why I set my alarm. If you cant be arsed getting medical evidence when requested you dont get money - simple as. Take responsibility for yourself for Gods sake. Would you like someone to wipe your a**e aswell? As Ive said Im answering no further questions surrounding ATOS and the decision making process Ive said all I need to say, stated all the FACTS and whether you choose to believe them or not is up to you, it makes not one iota of difference to me.

I like that one, might use it myself sometime :rotfl:

andyandflo

OOOOps now we really know what DWP staff think of us guys that employ them. The last time I understood it, DWP employees were Civil Servants! Please read the Oxford English Dictionary for definitions!!
I never said you were employed by ATOS, all I was saying is that you are using their well known, flawed reports to make a decision that affects someone's life.
And NO it is not my responsibility to collect evidence to support my claim. I will humbly apologise to all and sundry if you can point me in the direction that tells me that it is my responsibilty to do so. DWP leaflet, claim form or otherwise!!! If you were to read the ESA Regulations,
Information required for determining capability for work
1.—(1)(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), the information or evidence required to determine whether a claimant has limited capability for work is—
(a) evidence of limited capability for work in accordance with the Medical Evidence Regulations (which prescribe the form of doctor’s statement or other evidence required in each case);
(b) any information relating to a claimant’s capability to perform the activities referred to in Schedule 2 as may be requested in the form of a questionnaire; and
(c) any such additional information as may be requested.
Failure to provide information in relation to limited capability for work
1.—(1)(1) Where a claimant fails without good cause to comply with the request referred to in regulation 21(1)(b), that claimant is, subject to paragraph (2), to be treated as not having limited capability for work.
(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply unless—
(a) at least 6 weeks have passed since the claimant was sent the first request for the information; and
(b) the claimant was sent a further request at least 4 weeks after the date of the first request, and at least 2 weeks have passed since the further request was sent.

Yes I agree that under the first part, it is for the ATOS/DWP to request information in respect of medical history etc. It is not for me to obtain it for them! And in subsection 'c' it is for ATOS/DWP to request any additional information that may assist in the making of a decision. The second part only comes into effect if the ESA50 is not returned.
So unless I am mistaken, the claimant is neither required nor responsible for submitting evidence unless he wishes to ignore a request to do so from ATOS/DWP.
Yes I have the ESA85, had it the same day the DWP received their's. Let me point out what actually happened not what you think happens. You are quite correct in saying that there is a section headed up Medical Conditions History and Treatment. What this is is a statement which I gave the 'medic'. I specifically asked before the assessment started what evidence he was using. He indicated that he had the ESA50. I asked if he had applied for and/or received the form ESA113 (medical report from GP). He said he did not know as there was nothing in the file. The day after I telephoned my GP and she confirmed that she had not been asked to complete a form ESA113 although she did know what they were.
So unless you can point me in the right direction as to where it tells me that I have to go and collate all of this information - you are wrong!!!
If I was requested at any stage to collate the material and decided that I didn't want to, well then that is a different story completely. So please work to the letter of the law, do your job properly and stop insulting us all on here - I don't have to do your work for you!!!!! unless you can show me otherwise. The appeal hearing is different, the general rules of evidence apply.