party wall agreements

collon

Thanks for all of your advise.

In response:-
We have spoken to a solicitor who says the situation is outrageous but also states that any damage done is the responsibility of the builder (who will not supply their details) - not the neighbour.
I could sue the neighbour for breach of the PWeA but what penalties would be issued?
I did talk with a PW surveyor recommeded by RICS, but his advice was t get another surveyor or solicitor involved. Unfortuanately by this time the foundations were in and the wall built.
My solicitor believes that the neighbour has been vry clever (not what I would call it), in getting the builders to start work without notice and completing the work so quickly that we had not time to respond. Many solicitors we have spoken to, do not want to get involved in this kind of case.
It would appear that the neighbour has done this before and coul well do it again.
I'm at a loss to know where to go from here.

mrmrman

know this is an old thread now but if you have neighbours who won't co-operate and builders who will not identify themselves take pictures

take pictures of the builders cars and/or vans and make a note also of the registration numbers of the vehicles, of course get the registration on film as well if you can,

with the flash off you can even take pictures of the builders for identification as well past the side of some net curtains if you don't like the idea of confronting the builders,

understandable as some are prone to get physical and not all neighbours can handle that,
with work vehicles identification and photos of them at work its hard for them to to deny they are responsible for any party wall liability,
you may find it useful to have some friends and neighbours around your house at the time as well for witnesses and protection in case a lout builder spots you and turns funny about it,

monty12_2

I do feel sorry for collon, however there is a reason why this has happened and it comes from the terrible process that is the party wall act. Here is my take on it:

The party wall act has been designed by party wall surveyors for party wall surveyors. It is actually fairly corrupt.

I have a problem with their extortionate fees - £120 per hour plus. I am sure they have to go through a whole series of exams to get this far. However when it comes to a major residential building project they are the least contributive to the whole thing, yet they are also the most highly paid. I have paid an Architect (£50 per hour), an Engineer (£75 per hour), an Interior Decorator (£40/hour) and these people have all given me a beautiful home to live in. The party wall surveyors, my appointed one, and both my neighbours ones have cost me £10k and have delayed the project 5 months and caused nothing but headaches and completely tarnished the relationship between my neighbour and myself.

I have a real problem with this: your appointed party wall surveyor does not work for you, he works in the interests of the wall. With this in mind, you expect a 'professional' to be able to work 'impartially' and draw up an aggreement between both owners. However the surveyors on both side clearly are working in the interests of the same cause - thus duplicating the work. Settling the disbute by the means of a third surveyor is the worst part of the act. These guys all look after the interests of their own kind.

What is a party wall act supposed to do?

Give protection to the neighbour that the building works are being completed with structural integrity and ensure that the neighbours' properties are adequately compensated should their be any damage.

Say there is no award, does this get you out of paying for damage to your neighbours property? Clearly not. It does protect you from the neighbour claiming more damage than may have been caused over the course of the works, however with adequate photographic evidence, you should be able to put together a Schedule of Condition with your neighbour if you are prepared.

What are the consequences of not having an award and proceeding with the works anyway?

'This would be a foolish mistake' they tell you. Bullsh*t i say. They say they can get an injunction against you. How long does this take and how much would this cost the neighbour? it is just not worth their while and they would have to prove that you are causing them damage.

Had i known what an enormous stress the process was i would have done the following. Waited until my neighbour went on holiday and blitzed the party wall work while they were away. even if it overran and they were insistant on getting an injunction, it would take them a week or so. The worst case scenario here is that you have to pay your neighbour for any damage caused. but you would have saved £8k on party wall surveyors fees (from both sides).

I am not going to rant any more, but i hope and pray they reform the clearly flawed party wall act. And hopefully someone will have the courage to prove that using these leaches of society are a complete waste of time.

matchmade

I have a lot of sympathy for monty12, as in my experience party wall surveyors operate a complete racket - there is zero price competition, endless caveats and buck-passing to ensure they are never responsible for anything, and yes, it involves complete duplication of work.

That said, most "professionals" asociated with the construction industry play the same game: try getting any price variation from planning consultannts, highways consultants, arboriculturalists (tree surveys), bat inspectors, asbestos inspectors, environmental inspectors and so on. They all charge £600-£1000 + VAT + travel expenses for what is usually no more than half a day on site, followed by some ludicrously padded report, cut and pasted together from previous reports and with about two pages of useful content. And people wonder why housebuilding is so expensive! I find the only people who do proper work, fairly paid, are land surveyors, architects (50%), builders, and various unsung heros at the council who know lots of useful things about local drainage and are helpful too.

macman

Abuse reported...

macman

The spam post has already been removed..

xanderlax

Hi I have a mid terraced house that I have applied for permission to build a dormer extension in the roof. Both neighbours have lived there for 10 plus years as council tenants and have no issues with my plans.
Do I need to pay a party wall surveyor if I have council approval, pictures before hand, and a written agreement showing all elements of a normal party wall agreement? It just seems like a waste of money I don't have for construction that needs no planning permission in the first place.

x

macman

You don't need a surveyor, but you do need to issue a PWN if the party wall is affected.
You may not need planning permission, but you will most certainly need building control approval.

Leif

collon wrote: »

Thanks for all of your advise.

In response:-
We have spoken to a solicitor who says the situation is outrageous but also states that any damage done is the responsibility of the builder (who will not supply their details) - not the neighbour.
I could sue the neighbour for breach of the PWeA but what penalties would be issued?
I did talk with a PW surveyor recommeded by RICS, but his advice was t get another surveyor or solicitor involved. Unfortuanately by this time the foundations were in and the wall built.
My solicitor believes that the neighbour has been vry clever (not what I would call it), in getting the builders to start work without notice and completing the work so quickly that we had not time to respond. Many solicitors we have spoken to, do not want to get involved in this kind of case.
It would appear that the neighbour has done this before and coul well do it again.
I'm at a loss to know where to go from here.

Wow. I hope this was resolved but I fear not. I know from first hand experience that the law on boundaries is pathetic and is easily flouted by devious people such as your neighbours. When I was selling my late mother's house, the neighbours pulled down our fence and erected a new fence on our side of the boundary. There is not a lot that can be done because the outcome of a court case all depends on the mood of the judge on the day. Most judges do not like boundary disputes.

panchenlama

I totally agree with Monty12. The 3rd party wall act is a job creation scheme that creates bad feelings between neighbours. When I lodged an application for building regs both my neighbours received a cold call scare letter from an ambulance type surveyor company in London (and I'm in the north west!). One neighbour was cool and realised the scam ignoring it and the other engaged with them (the letter helpfully stated that I would have to pay all the bills on thier behalf). I then received a nice series of threatening letters telling me I had to pay them several thousand pounds for someone to come and have a look at the job. I told them to f*ck off. I then told them I had cancelled the job but continued anyway. Tghe neighbour who was an a**hole quickly realised he had no recourse.

And guess what, the job was finished some years ago, no problems, buildings still standing and looks fine. What annoys me even more is that both neighbours have the same extension (my house in the middle was the only one that didn't) - so where was the percieved problem???!!!

End result is that the (single storey) extension is finished, looks great and improves the look of the run of houses. The nagative however is that I'm freeking detest one set of neighbours now and don't have anything to do with them. Could have been very different but there we are....

Collon, feel sorry for you but they don't appear to have done anything they are not allowed to and I think they are right to have ignored the 3rd party act. Be honest with yourself, if they had told you of thier plans would you have said 'oh yes, that's great?' probably not so I think they have taken the right path. Bit !!!! but there we are...