Advice please-threatened with police for note keeping

naz101

Hi guys,

Im really posting on behalf of someone else and dont know if this is the correct area for it.

My friend has a son in college in his first year. However, a few incidences have happened over the last few months. He has had family problems which the college are aware of.

In December, they held a meeting with him and his mum and warned that he will have to be on his best behaviour, to which he agreed.

Roll on January and things have got worse. He has been pulled up for letting a door slam shut ( which he puts down to his hands being wet and the door slipping).

He feels he is being slightly victimised at the moment as other kids are more disruptive and are excluded from class but have never been suspended.

He has now been suspended for making a stupid (not offensive) comment.

The point of this long post is that his mum advised him to make a note of everything that has been said to him, along with the time and date of each thing happening.

The college have found out about this and have threatened to involve the police and "get him done" as it breaches their privacy.

Is this true or are they just trying to scare him into stopping?

Thank you for taking the time to read this very long post!!:T

pitkin2020

He is well within his right to log all incidents as they occur to use as evidence at a hearing.

If he truly believes he is being victimised he can return the comment that he would like the police to be involved due to victimisation. Not recommended though if hes not.

naz101

he really does feel like he is. Ofcourse I am going by what he and his mother are saying about all of this.
I was next to the mother when she called the college to find out what was going on and they told her this.

the other incident was when the teacher was apparently telling them something she had already taught. There were a lot of grumbles and he said "thats a waste of time" at the end and not that loud.
However, he apologised at the end and she seemed to accept it.

From this one incident they have decided to suspend him and launch an investigation.

Once again, this is what I am being told but I have been next to her on 2 occassions for 20 min calls and heard these things:(

fluffnutter

Agree with pitkin2020; he's entitled to log the incidents. However, he needs to be careful how this is done. He's not entitled to record others without their permission, so no sneaky dictaphones or mobile phone videoing. Logging the incident in, say, a diary after the event is perfectly legal and is often advised if people are having disputes at work.

What's even more powerful is if he is completely up-front about this. Letting someone know he's logging the incident and offering to show them what he's written demonstrates that he's not trying to behave in an underhand manner.

But... I'd exercise caution about doing any of this. Whilst perfectly legal, he could be nonetheless inflaming the situation. Is it one particular tutor he's having problems with? Has he discussed other options such as changing his course. Are there other tutors, perhaps with specific pastoral responsibilites that he could talk to? It seems depressing to think that he feels he has no other options than to log incidents. Most problems can be resolved by honest dialogue and he needs to have genuinely exhausted all other avenues before he starts doing 'building his case'.

He also needs to be absolutely honest with himself (and others) as to what he's trying to achieve if he does begin keeping a diary. The main reason that this is advised at work is for the purposes of industrial tribunals in the event that someone feels they've been unfairly dismissed. Dismissal has legal implications hence the information logged could become admissable evidence. I'm not sure if this would be the case at a school or college. What is he going to do with these incidents once logged? Who will he show them to? Does it want to 'prove' he's being victimised? Who does he need to prove this to?

I'd suggest that he needs a sympathetic ear from someone in the college who can perhaps vouch for his commitment to behaving well. Normally you're taught by more than one tutor - Is there another tutor who's happy with his work? Engaging this person's support may well be more productive than logging incidents which, TBH, may be construed by the college as overly combative.

Sorry for the long post: in summary, it may well be legal... but is it advisable? Probably not.

naz101

fluffnutter, please dont apologise. You are helping and for that I am greatful.

I get the feeling he feels he has no options left. He loves the course he is on and feels he cant do anything else.

The main tutor for his course is the one who is instigating all of this.
They set meetings with the mother at very short notice ( less than a week) and refuse to budge when she says she cant get time off work so easily.

I think he has one sympathetic ear who is willing to back him but dont hold out much hope as the main tutor, like I said, is doing it all.

He is not using any recording devices at all.
He simply comes home tells his mum what has happened and then logs it in a sort of diary, incase he needs it.

I just think it is unfair that they are threatening him with the police about this.
He has spent the whole weekend crying ( 18 years old) and went in today as they told him to, and in front of everyone this tutor told him he is suspended so leave immediately.
He is now missing 2 vital exams for the year and is extremely upset

fluffnutter

I think the most interesting thing is that they're threatening him with the police over something that's not a criminal activity (if done openly). Threats are all about control - the purpose is solely to get someone to stop (or not start) a particular action. The details of the action, or the threat issued to try to stop it, aren't particularly important. What is important is the fact that the college (or someone in the college) doesn't want him to do something, and appears to be randomly issuing threats of dubious substance in an attempt to prevent this. Have they said why they don't want him logging incidents, other than that they, I assume, think it's illegal?

I'd expect them to explain why he can't log incidents. As already discussed, it's not illegal, and moreover, it's often advised so if the college objects then they should have a legitimate reason. Perhaps they don't believe it would help (they may be right). I'd be very interested in who exactly has objected? Is it the tutor he's having problems with? If so, and he is genuinely being victimised, then of course the tutor wouldn't want any evidence of this! Or perhaps it's the college in general. Is it policy?

It would be easy to get sidetracked by the interesting issue of whether the threat has any legal substance, or whether logging incidents is even the best way forward. I think the main issue is that a college student's relationship with his main tutor has deteriorated to such an extent that he can no longer follow his course (which he has up until now been enjoying).

I'm not sure if that situation could be improved by keeping a log of incidents. If he's successful in demonstrating that he is indeed being victimised (which could take weeks or months) then I assume he'll be reinstated without prejudice on his course. What happens then? He's still going to have to be taught by this tutor and interact with him/her on perhaps a daily basis. How will they both mend their relationship? As I posted before, he needs to be clear about what he wants to happen. If he just wants the tutor to back off and let him get on with enjoying his course, then talking is surely better than any other approach.

elisebutt65

I may be being suspicious, but there must be more to this than you know. I'm a personal year tutor at college and we never suspend our students for thius type of incident - for one thing we have to make sure we retain all our students for budgetary reasons!! (and to CYA's)

We only put students on behavioural contracts for poor achievement or bad attendence and very rarely for bad behaviour.

The only time that I've known a student to be suspended was when he was harrassing a female student, to the point that she complained. Even then he was just transferered onto another courtse eventually.

I have told one student to leave immediately, but this was after she had already received a letter asking to leave the course as sher only had 20% attendence.

If she/he's got it in for him then unless he lodges a formal grievance then he's going to need all the luck he can get - I hate bullies and it looks like he'll need to lodge his grievance with the Vice Principal/Senior Course Leader/Course Manager - all of the above!!!

naz101

elisebutt65, I also agree there is reason to be suspicious.
I am not fully aware of what has happened in the past, but I told her that I would ask if it was ok to keep a note of what was said.

Other than that unless I have the full story I cant really say anything.

I just thought it was really wierd threatening him with the police!

tandraig

!!!!!! - he is perfectly entitled to write anything he wishes!!! whether its as a diary or a log - and yes he can record anything which is said to him - on a dictaphone or anything else! the question there is whether it would be admissable in court.
what the hell is going on here - you cant make notes of conversations or record them? what exactly is the college afraid of?
he can tell them his memory isnt reliable so he records 'official' interviews etc. why would they object to this? tell him - if he feels victimised to speak to his student union. all colleges have one. otherwise - if he is asked to head of department or year tutor - he is entitled to have someone with him. and yes as long as he says he is recording interview - he can do it. if they object - wont go against student - he simply explains he wants a non biased record. if they still object. take it to higher authority. the LEA possibly.

RobertoMoir

I've got to be careful what I say here because I work for a college myself. Any opinions expressed below are my own and nothing to do with my employer, etc, etc.

If I were in your position or that of the boy's mother I'd wonder if I'd heard the full story. In fact I wonder if you have heard the full story from the mother; colleges generally don't call parents in for trivial matters, they expect the young adults to be able to deal with their own affairs to some degree and usually only speak to their parents if there are serious issues.

The only explanation I can come up with for this as you describe it is either that there's a part of this story missing and it doesn't show the boy in a very good light, or that the lecturer and every single person senior to them in the college's management structure is managing to make incredibly poor decisions despite years of experience and no-end of guidelines that are supposed to all but force them to behave in a better manner than in the story you describe.

Now I don't want to sound rude, but which one of those is the most likely explanation?

The student can (and should if he's sure he's in the right) make a formal complaint about any member of staff he feels is victimising him. The college will have a student support structure outside of the normal teachers/lecturers (probably given a name along the lines of "student services") and will almost certainly have a student councillor. If he goes to these people and tells them he wishes to complain formally about the poor treatment he feels he has received, I am sure he will be taken seriously.

maninthestreet

fluffnutter wrote: »

Sorry for the long post: in summary, it may well be legal... but is it advisable? Probably not.

Of course it's perfectly legal AND advisable to keep a diary/record of events in such cicrumstances - you can bet the college authorities are keeping up to date records in relation to these events . In legal terms, it's called 'contemporaneous notes'.