Buying a derelict Victorian terrace. Any help, advice, stories?

gingin_2

We have been looking and waiting for the right house to come along and after resigning ourselves to never getting what we want, it looks like it might have come along. Only trouble is, it is completely derelict. I am up for a challenge, I am a pretty organised person, pretty good at delegating but having never owned a house, let alone renovated one. I don't know what to expect but I see it as the only way can get our perfect "forever" family home. This will have to be my project as OH works full time, long hours.

Budget wise, it seems cheap. My worry is that the renovation budget will spiral out of control. I am trying to think of all the Property Ladder programs and all the "worst case scenario's" but my mind has gone blank.

It looks like a planner's worst nightmare. It is a Victorian terrace and it was last bought 4 years ago and has been hacked to pieces. There are large holes in the floor it looks like someone has hacked away at the outside of the building and the half finished kitchen extension has windows (window shaped, bricked up holes) on the ground floor overlooking the neighbour's yard. That can't be legal? The windows and doors will all need replacing.

We can see velux windows in the roof, although the agent blurb states there is no staircase leading up to there - it' a positive though, as we would need the extra room. There are no partition walls that we can see on the ground floor, it's just a shell and my fear is that there are none on the first floor either. It looks like the walls need covering and replastering (no idea of techical terms, sorry), the outside needs repainting. I am guessing rewiring and central heating needs to be added as well.

Worst case is that it is a shell of a house that needs all the extensions taking down due to poor planning and construction, and almost rebuilding from scratch. Best case is that we can work with the planners to make good the extensions to suit them and us.

At this point, I have to add that we haven't been inside the house! Where we live, supply is short and houses go in a flash but they are all of a similar style and construction. This one appearing to be no different. This house is up for auction unless sold prior and we are prepared to secure before it goes to auction. We have had a good nosey outside and through the letterbox, so can see what a state it is in. We are viewing it on the one hour slot they have this week and assumng that it is no worse than we have already seen we will get a survey done on it asap.

Discussing finances I feel uncomfortable/embarrased about but I can't see that I can get help on here without discussing it......Our budget for renovations and extensions, down to the last door knob would be £150k with a contingency of 15% that we would really rather not use. I don't want to do it on the cheap, I want to abide by planning laws and keep up good relations with the neighbours. We just want a quality family home that we can live in for a long while. The plan would be that we would have 3 first floor beds + loft conversion and a through living /dining room, with a kitchen/dining/living extension into the side return at the back of the house. It looks like there might be a cellar there, although we could happily wait to sort that out.

Has anyone done this, or got any ideas of costs and timescales? Any scare stories and/or positive ones and any advice would be great. Or any warnings of a worst case scenario. I am going to call the planners office in the morning to see if the have any notes, gossip, advice on the property.

Sorry it is so long and thanks so much if you can help.

Radiantsoul

I think you need to get a builder or architect to give you an approximate idea on what it is going to cost. You are going to need a good relationship with them.

It sounds like a massive project and it would scare the hell out of me. I hope you are buying it at a massive discount.

Fire_Fox

Are you a cash buyer? You won't get a mortgage on this until you are well on with the build, probably once you have a kitchen and bathroom and the house is vaguely habitable. You first need a full structural survey, this has to be done before the auction as you exchange contracts on the day and there is NO backing out thereafter. You should be able to search the local council's website to see what planning applications have been submitted for the extension and/ or loft conversion. In the absence of permission I would assume you need to undo ALL the work already done, even the Velux windows may be in the wrong places as not conform to building and fire regs. Agree with Radiantsoul, once you have a full structural survey then you need a trusted builder to do a full quote.

hethmar

Id say think of an amount then double it. It will be a very long job, you will be constantly in dirt and worrying about the cost of the newest problem you have found - and you will find them. You havent even been in the house, forget about it now.

gingin_2

Thank you both. Fire Fox, I never realised I could check planning permissions online and it has been a goldmine of information that I have just been soaking up with OH.

It's got a huge garden which is a real rarity here and once had a second house on it. Planning application was granted to remove that building, however, they applied to build a new house which was denied. They then applied for permission to turn the main house into flats which was again denied, however, permission to extend into the side return was granted along with the 3rd bedroom extension - exactly what we want ( the planning permission is granted until 2011).

It's a real positive for us and gives me a small amount of hope that I won't have to bid against lots of property developers who are hoping to turn it around for max profit. Maybe those extension on the whole are okay, we shall see this week.

My guess is it was purchased 4 years ago by a developer (we can see all applications were made by a property company) who saw it as a cash cow and was turned back at every hurdle and decided to cut his/her losses. We just want to turn it back into a family home. We will definitely get a builder in on your recommendations and would never consider buying without a survey. I am very excited.

Fire_Fox

Keep this thread updated, please.

gingin_2

hethmar wrote: »

Id say think of an amount then double it. It will be a very long job, you will be constantly in dirt and worrying about the cost of the newest problem you have found - and you will find them. You havent even been in the house, forget about it now.

So you think our budget wouldn't be enough, I hoped it would?

The dirt I can cope with, it will become my full time job until it is ready. We will live in our current house until it is habitable.

I will view it this week with an open but pessimistic mind.

chewmylegoff

in 2005 i inherited a 1930s house, which had basically been run into the ground. it needed to be entirely gutted and redecorated. a bit of structural work was required but not much. sounds like you have much more to do - probably needs rewiring, new CH, new pipework everywhere, gas supply etc.

this was a huge job. my parents are friends with a builder, so he agreed to help (for money, naturally) - and I did about 50% of the labour myself. initially i took 6 weeks off work and worked on it full time with the builder, gutting the house and installing a basic shower. after that it was pretty much all of my spare time at evenings and weekends for a couple of years. it took up a truly massive amount of time, and i was lucky to have all the necessary local contacts (gas engineer, plumber, electrician, builder etc) through my parents. my dad helped me to put in the kitchen and bathroom once the relevant tradesmen had done their bit.

it was well worth doing it, because i (a) learnt a lot and (b) made a property ladder style profit [i.e. the one where beeny tells you that you actually made a loss on the work you did, and if you hadn't bothered doing any work you would still have made the same amount of money cos the market went up so much], but i would never, ever, do it again on that scale. it was such a time/money pit. it takes so much longer than you think it will (the warning is there in just about every TV property programme you see where the build takes double the time anticipated and costs twice as much).

you are essentially starting up your own property development business (regardless of whether you are just doing this for yourselves to live in the house) without any experience or knowledge of how to do it. given this you need to seriously consider whether this will be too big a job for you to handle.

if you have the right contacts - i.e. you have friends, or friends of friends, who can provide all the services you need (pref at mates rates), then it would be more manageable and you could be sure you weren't paying over the odds for everything. you don't want to be relying on people that you find in the yellow pages - given the number you will need, at least one of them will likely be a scam artist / incompetent.

basically, in my view, if you're pretty loaded and can afford for it all to go wrong then it might be something worth doing for the learning curve. but this probably isn't a great idea if you need to live in the place at some point and you can't afford to lose any of the money you are going to sink into the place.

also, if a property developer has decided to cut their losses on it and run away, that means they perceive no profit can be made. that means it probably wont be cheaper for you to buy and develop this place than it would be to just buy a similar finished home. or at least the difference between the cost of the two does not make the time and effort involved in the development worth it. [or, of course, they ran out of money and were forced to sell it].

gingin_2

Thanks chewmylegoff for your really comprehensive reply.

I don't know anyone to get mates rates but I do have lots of friends who live in the area and have done similar things and can hopefully get reliable contacts from.

Even though our budget on paper seems large, here it does not get you very far. We have a long list of what we would reasonably like in a house and always assumed we could not get it all. I think in this house we might be able to. We've been renters for 11 years, so are up for the challenge and I have been watching the local housing market as an obsession for the 6 years we have been here.

As far as making a profit, there could be a little money in it. Maybe £25k, maybe a bit more if my sums are right - but as a percentage of the total amount invested and the time it will take to renovate it's not huge. I am hoping nobody is as foolish as me to take that on. Making a profit is irrelevant to us (but still a valid point of yours) as we would have no desire to sell. I don't think I would be satisfied with any house that was already renovated by someone else, I will always want to tweak it. OH agrees. My wants are pretty specific and it's exciting to think I could do it my way. Eeek, that does sound bratty.

I think I can do it. I have a good support network, really fantastic parents who have always taken on massive renovation projects and are already behind us and I have the time needed to do the job, with no other pressures other than family. We rent a good house close by so I can be at the other house in 5 minutes if needed.

This might all fall flat on it's face. All will reveal itself over the next few weeks. There is always someone far richer than us ready to pay silly amounts for property here but I am hoping the house is so much of an ugly duckling that no one wants to touch it. We tend to err on the pessimistic side - "prepare for the worst and hope for the best" - which I hope will be of benefit here.

clutton_2

start at the top

roof - does it need replacing, including timbes and tiles/slates - ask a roofer

roof space - building reg compliant roof bedrooms can cost £20-£60k depending on size and finish

new joinery throughout - doors, frames, architraves, skirtings, window sills, etc

new electrics throughout.... include hard wired smoke alarms throughout and outside lighting for back

new gas central heating

DPC - including tanking in the cellar to prevent risign damp into the mainbody of the house

Infestation - investigate dry rot, wet rot etc etc and treat if necesary

rebuilding of internal walls/ceilings and replastering

soundproofing

new double glazing

new kitchen

new bathroom

complete new floor coverings with underlay and fitting

assessment/replacement of drains and building of new inspection hatches (victorians hardly ever put any in)

garden levelling and replenishing

external painting of premises / after repointing / rendering

upgrading of water goods

i am beginning to think i have long ago spent £120k


please dont underestimate the time this will take and the cost, the mess, the dirt, the depression, the challenges, the "extras" that you ALWAYS find in old houses, the challenge of working with professionals who know everything about their work, and you, who know nothing...

this is not a "mates helping" out sort of job, this is a major building project and getting trades in at the right time, getting materials onto site in the right order, getting the RIGHT materials to arrive in the first place, getting local authority inspections visits timed right, getting invoices paid on time, getting workmen into the house EVERY SINGLE DAY, re-sourceing materials when supplier fail to supply, keeping track of your budget on a daily basis, having a contingency plan for when the money runs out due to unforseen problems....

all this things sound easy on paper - they are NOT - you seem to have already decided to go ahead with not even the technical language you need to describe the problems you will encounter


the problem with being an amateur, is that builders will spot you are an amateur in less than 2 minutes, and the price will go up , the time schedule will increase, and the materials quality will go down ... if you are going to do this, then at least employ a proper Project Manager who will work on YOUR behalf.... a extremely good builder will do that for you... trouble is - you wont know who is good or who is bad ........

embark on this with as much professoinal - ie PAID FOR - help as you can and you could do it.. but you wont get all the above done for £120k ....... so decide ahead of time which bits can wait for a few years down the line......

think it through, write it down, dont decide with your heart...

that list was just off the top of my head... i daresay others will soon tell us what i have forgotten.....

gingin_2

Thanks Clutton. I am pretty certain we will get to survey stage so will definitely update when we do. It looked like it had a new roof, whether it is a good roof only a surveyor can tell me. The agents blurb did say "part renovated, needs completing" and looking at the planners reports, I think they have made a start.

We've never followed heart over head, hence being renters for so long. I've fallen in love with many houses but never followed through with them. This one feels right but we will do our very best not to make a foolish decision.

Edited to add:- since reading the planning applications, my feeling is that they began to convert the property in preparation for it being 2 flats but stopped when they got the no-go. I hope more has been done than we are expecting.