It never rains but...

margaretclare

....it pours.

Just when we were planning our summer holiday (the west of Ireland in July), a weekend in Doncaster for the English Democrats' Spring Conference (last one before the election) and our trip to the Midlands in June (Brackenhurst, Nottingham Trent University) and hoping for better health this year for DH and weight loss plus learning to swim for me - the man who did our roof a couple of years ago arrived. The roof was replaced and lined with a membrane under the new tiles, but it wasn't insulated. We agreed that his team should insulate under the tiles and in the corners, all the places where heat is able to escape.

Got back from swimming this morning, bad news. There is woodworm in the loft. This is a 1932 bungalow. In 1991 insulation was put down between the ceiling joists in the loft and flooring boards laid on top to make a solid floor. All has to come out. Plus all the storage boxes, old duvets, you name it. We've just been up to the tip with a load of stuff to get rid of. Some of it been up there fore years, and years....

Well, the guys have almost cleared the existing insulation (this was laid down by my first husband, and he died in 1992!) It had been going to be his playroom for model trains because that was his hobby. The lofts in this type of bungalow are huge, in fact some people have made another room up there, or 2 rooms in some cases!

Anyway, this is going to cost. And I am only thankful that we have savings. People have asked me 'why save at your age, what are you saving FOR???' Well, in October 2008 I was darned glad I had savings because I needed a more modern shower cubicle with a lower step-in for dh coming out of hospital with a stiff leg (before the 4th replacement of left knee, 4th since 2003 which was done in February 2009). Upgrading the bathroom cost me £2K. Now this...with woodworm in the loft you just can't leave it. Thank God we have still been saving! I don't know what we'd do if we were like so many people our age, living on what comes in every week and nothing extra, nothing to save.

TravellingAbuela

Oh what bad news but, as you say, you are lucky that you can afford to have the job done. OH retired at 60 on a works pension which was much less than his wage, plus a lump sum which we banked. It seems silly at times to scrimp more than we did when we were both working, but I live in fear of dipping into our lump sum and ending up with nothing. My daughter says what's the point, get it spent, but who is going to pay for jobs doing when we have nothing left! Not my daughter that's for sure!!

lilac_lady

MC - I always read your posts and have agreed with your opinion on saving when you're older. I don't want to worry about not having enough money to fix things when they need it so I save too.

Having said that, my saving isn't at the expense of leading a decent lifestyle. I buy good quality food etc and appreciate the fact that I can do so even though I'm now a pensioner. My family wouldn't be able to give me financial help (I've given them some) so I need to rely on myself. That's why I save.

margaretclare

lilac_lady wrote: »

MC - I always read your posts and have agreed with your opinion on saving when you're older. I don't want to worry about not having enough money to fix things when they need it so I save too.

Having said that, my saving isn't at the expense of leading a decent lifestyle. I buy good quality food etc and appreciate the fact that I can do so even though I'm now a pensioner. My family wouldn't be able to give me financial help (I've given them some) so I need to rely on myself. That's why I save.

Yes, I completely agree with you. As I indicated in my post, we plan holidays and we do leisure-time activities (just got a new tankini!) but we also save. DH has sometimes said 'why are we saving?' but since the shower enclosure, when I explained to him that I had to get it done for him coming out of hospital with a stiff leg, he wonders no longer.

I'm trying to contact the Energy Saving Trust who supposedly have grants for loft insulation, but so far, they're too busy to answer a call or to phone back.

[Deleted User]

one thing after another for you Margaret. Thank goodness you have always had your head screwed on

Life can be lovely and simple and happy one day and all of a sudden there is a downer and savings can and do help. My dh hurt his knee yesterday, just getting up from kneeling. There isn`t any point in going to the docs (yet) so I have been to the physio room and ordered a good quality knee support. Home treatment first ie rest, ibuprofen, arnica etc.

I am thinking of you Margaret. What a downer after all you have been through

margaretclare

kittie wrote: »

one thing after another for you Margaret. Thank goodness you have always had your head screwed on

Life can be lovely and simple and happy one day and all of a sudden there is a downer and savings can and do help. My dh hurt his knee yesterday, just getting up from kneeling. There isn`t any point in going to the docs (yet) so I have been to the physio room and ordered a good quality knee support. Home treatment first ie rest, ibuprofen, arnica etc.

I am thinking of you Margaret. What a downer after all you have been through

Thank you very much, kittie. Well, after all this we really didn't have a definite price to work to, just because so much depended on how bad the woodworm damage actually was, and the guys couldn't even see it until all the junk had been cleared out of the loft space followed by the floor panels and existing insulation ripped out - this has now been done. It's going to cost us £6K. We haven't got this in normal bank savings accounts because interest rates were so derisory, so everything that I had in cash ISAs at the start of this tax year was put into a stocks-and-shares ISA and this involves selling units and then getting the cash transferred to my bank account. So, not a quick process, but at least the money is there.

I eventually managed to get in contact with the Energy Savings Trust's helpline - they rang me back at 9 am today after I'd left several messages with them yesterday. There are grants available, but - how it works is similar to the WarmFront scheme where they send someone out to assess the problem and what needs doing, then they appoint their own contractor, then eventually they come along and do the job. The fact that we have a contractor doing the job already means we can't get any financial help towards it. We've been assured that with woodworm and similar infestation, every day that it's left untreated can cause more damage and maybe cost more in the long run. Also, we shouldn't have even known that there were any of these little critters up there if we hadn't agreed to the original job being done, the insulation under the roof tiles.

And it's our 8th wedding anniversary today, we are going out to lunch, but it's really true what I said originally - it never rains but it pours!!!

David_Aldred

Hi Margaret,
Just read your post and sorry to hear the troubles you are going through but one thing did strike me as rather odd. That is that somebody has diagnosed your woodworm as active at this time of year and worried you by saying each day that passes the situation is getting worse.

Common furniture beetle (which the public generally refer to as woodworm) usually emerge from the wood to breed from late Spring to late Summer and we are in the middle of Winter at present. Just because the holes are there in the wood does not mean it is active at all.

I am not saying it is not active but that the use of long lasting insecticides should always be justified and unless somebody gets a piece of wood from that loft and breaks it open and shows you a live common furniture beetle or its larva then they have not proved the infestation is active.

The usual means of justification is to monitor the infestation once it becomes known over the summer period to see if it is indeed active. This can be done by laying white lining paper over the loft floor to a patch area say near the loft trap as the insects are attracted to bright white surfaces plus taping paper over old flight holes to trap or see evidence of any emerging beetles.

You can keep spraying chemicals to the cows come home and it will not make the holes caused by the insect disappear and just because there is bore dust / dead beetles about or the holes in the wood look clean does not mean at all that the infestation is active. You need to find live beetles or larva in or emerging from the wood and if you cannot be shown actual live beetles or live larva somebody is taking you for a mug.

I have written other posts regarding woodworm on this forum and it may just be worth you having a read of these to ensure the treatment is appropriate.

Kindest regards, David Aldred Independent damp and timber surveyor

margaretclare

Thank you, David. In fact, when the contractor discovered the problem while we were out on Tuesday morning, immediately we came back he told us 'there's a problem'. My husband went up the ladder and saw these things, which were live. He says he actually had some of them in his hand.

We think the problem may have originated in some old pieces of furniture that had been put up there for storage (it's a very large loft, not like the modern ones which aren't big enough to stand upright).

Believe me, my husband is nobody's fool and he wouldn't have agreed to all this if he hadn't seen the evidence and been convinced by it.

David_Aldred

Hi Margaret,
Thanks for getting back to me and yes if proven active and you are sure what you have seen is indeed 'woodworm' (common furniture beetle) that has come directly from emergence / flight holes within the loft void as described then by all means treat if the level of activity is significant.

If you are in any doubt that the live insect you are looking at is indeed common furniture beetle then do a google image search and compare the live insect with the google image using a magnifying glass as there are a couple of similar insects that may be around at this time of year but which do not justify insecticide treatment such as spider beetle often found where there have been birds nests within roof spaces.

If the loft space is warm then the emergence period for common furniture beetle can be extended outside the late spring to late summer period but it is uncommon (pardon the pun) for the insects to emerge at this time of the year and hence the cautionary post above.

Please have the contractor fix permanent notices saying what product was used, date of treatment, their full contact details and full contact details of product manufacturer given this is a long lasting chemical being introduced and may at some point in the future (as has happened with many previous insecticides) be removed from the approved list onto a banned list on health grounds to those exposed to them.

Prior to treatment the loft void should be industrial vacuumed to remove all debris once insulation is removed and the product is not effective on painted / varnished timber so any such coatings should be removed prior to treatment.

The insecticide just puts a surface coating upon the timber and does not penetrate more than a a couple of millimetres. This is important because the insecticide will not be an instant kill to all insects within the wood. If an egg was laid just prior to treatment in the wood it may be several years before it changes to a beetle and emerges to breed / comes into contact with the insecticide and hence during those 7 years will continue to eat wood.

The contractor will not re-treat until after this period as this is called the fly out period and if you think the infestation is still active after this then you will need to prove the insects are emerging from actual treated areas.

Please also note that not all areas of the loft will be treated as not all areas / surfaces can be reached so the treatment will only ever be partially effective. Also be mindful of all necessary health and safety requirements for yourself and those that may be affected by the works including the adjoining property where applicable.

Kindest regards,

David Aldred Independent damp and timber surveyor

EdInvestor

How would one go about getting reputable contractors to provide second opinions on things like woodworm infestation?Certainly worth doing with the amount of money involved I'd have thought. Is there perhaps a professional association?

Did the original contractor comment on why he didn't spot the woodworm two years ago? Has it suddenly appeared?Presumably you had a survey done when you got your equity release mortgage - was anything noticed then?

David_Aldred

Hi EdInvestor,
Having a contractor's representative who is there to sell insecticide treatments often paid upon commision is obviously a system open to abuse and it is not uncommon to find areas within properties sprayed time and again with insecticides many of which have now been banned due to them being found to cause cancers with those exposed to these long lasting chemicals by different contractors each time that property came up for sale because the valuation surveyor noted the holes in the wood and recommended the client get a contractor to inspect and provide a quotation.

Common furniture beetle infestation is as its name suggests a common household pest but many infestations are old and inactive especially where previously treated with insecticide whilst others may be very much active and cause considerable damage if left unchecked. The insects fly and can simply come in through an open window and being an insect of the forest they do tend to prefer rural or semi rural areas with yummy clean wood to feed upon compared to city smog filled attics full of debris but can still survive in such areas.

The key really is knowing whether that infestation is active or not and if it is active what level of activity is occurring. By the latter I mean is it worth clearing and preparing a whole house for one beetle found upon a window cill? Remember some timbers will not be treated by the contractor if asked to spray chemicals because they are painted such as skirting or door frames or tiled floors or because they may be hard to reach. In addition spraying will also kill the common furniture beetles natural predators at the same time.

It has been shown that the insect may sense the layer of insecticide applied and may not emerge to breed at all but instead breed within the depth of the timber so that whilst the client thinks the infestation is under control it may be still active to some degree. In addition when areas are sprayed with chemicals the insect may concentrate activity in difficult to reach areas that were not sprayed including timber joints which is the last thing one would want.

Where insecticide treatment is justified the aim is to break the cycle of egg laying to breeding adult but this may take several years to control and all the time the insect within the depth of wood continues to eat that timber.

Given the insect prefers moist timber one of the primary sites to find 'woodworm' is the bathroom around the toilet. In summer when the beetles emerge to breed the insects are attracted to bright white surfaces check the bathroom sanitary ware and window cill areas for adults on a regular basis. Be mindful that some insects are similar in appearance to common furniture beetle and comapre any insects found with a google image search for this insect before rushing to treat.

Some timbers are more economic to replace than to treat such as painted skirting etc unless of special historic interest. Where replacing timber use timber pre-treated with an insecticide / fungicide and apply 'woodworm' killer to cut timber ends as a precautionary measure. As indicated above without finding live beetles a surveyor should not recommend treatment just because holes are present in wood as no amount of spraying chemicals will change the fact that holes are present.

Out of preferance if the client requires areas to be inspected by a professional with specialist knowledge of wood boring insects then the recommendation would be to have that inspection undertaken by somebody who cannot themselves profit by suggesting an infestation is active and requiring treatment and accordingly somebody who is not a contractor but an independent specialist surveyor. A list of such independent specialist surveyors may be found upon the Property Care Association (PCA) website under the heading of find a member and then selecting Freelance or Consultant (the rest are contractors looking for work) and then contacting somebody in your area for a chat about the matter.

Hope this helps, kindest regards, David Aldred Independent damp and timber surveyor