Spelling and Grammar

poet123

Fly_Baby wrote: »

I didn't ask to 'help' OP with his/her English - I asked to advise ME on what would be the correct way of saying the original post. And at the point when I was asking that, I hadn't done or written anything in this thread which would make you come to any assumtions about me.

To be fair, the corrections made by Quasar (at your prompting) seemed so obvious to me (and presumably others) that it seemed unecessary to dwell on them by re writing the OP. Additionally, later posts showed even less grasp of the language than her OP. I suspect that none of us would have commented had spelling and grammar not been the subject in question. I certainly would not have, but as has been said, if one is opining a lack of standards, then a wise poster checks their own posts are up to scratch before doing so.

The reason the OP began this thread is linked to another thread where she was active in casting aspersions on the teaching profession, exam results etc etc. That thread turned into a teacher bashing fest, hence, her OP on this one was clearly designed to carry that on and explore new avenues.

LucyTheDwarf

euronorris wrote: »

As usual, your understanding of English as a second language, is better than some native English speakers. I find this to be true for a lot of non native English speakers.

That's alarming isn't it. And yet, I am now used to it.

My boyfriend is Dutch. I'm English, grammar school educated, and consider myself to have above average spelling and grammar skills (I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, but I see so much worse), yet my boyfriend constantly corrects my English (spoken and written). Poor spelling and grammar in the workplace is one of my pet hates - I can barely understand some of the emails I receive at work. Worse than poor spelling and grammar though is when someone uses the wrong word, consistently. One of my colleagues does not know the difference between "whether" and "rather", and sadly the phrase "whether than" pops up in his emails regularly. It drives me mad.

Fly_Baby wrote: »

A bit off-topic but: you might want to try to get hold of Dutch press. Not quality newspapers like their version of "Times", "FT" or "Economist" etc, but something basic like "Cosmopolitan" or some weekly tabloid with human-interest stories. These have the kind of vocabulary you need for the conversational language. It builds up really quickly. I tried and tested it with English.

That is a really good tip - thanks! I feel silly not to have thought about it before actually. I have tried reading newspapers, but I find them too difficult to understand in any but light hearted stories (e.g. the articles about Sinterklaas arriving in the Netherlands). Cosmo's mix of shoes and sex would be less mentally challenging. I watch Dutch TV but find it's a bit (er.. a lot) too fast to take everything in - I know the words on paper, but struggle to recognise the words when spoken.

euronorris wrote: »

TV would be another good one, but they show so many English and American programmes so I tend to be a bit lazy and watch them. I really should watch some Dutch programmes though.

I try to be disciplined with TV. If I watch English or American programmes, I mute them and read the Dutch subtitles. Or just have them on very quiet so I can't make out all the words, because muted TV is a bit weird. Last week I watched a Spanish TV programme (my Spanish only goes to GCSE level, so I wasn't getting much help from the sound) with Dutch subtitles, and I was really proud of myself that I stayed with it (2 hours), and understood what was going on.

Fly_Baby

poet123 wrote: »

To be fair, the corrections made by Quasar (at your prompting) seemed so obvious to me (and presumably others) that it seemed unecessary to dwell on them by re writing the OP. Additionally, later posts showed even less grasp of the language than her OP. I suspect that none of us would have commented had spelling and grammar not been the subject in question. I certainly would not have, but as has been said, if one is opining a lack of standards, then a wise poster checks their own posts are up to scratch before doing so.

Well, forgive me, but after reading so many comments about the OP's poor English I started wondering that maybe his/her English was indeed much worse than it seemed to me from the original post, so I wanted to double-check with native speakers but found accusations in God knows what in return. This is a forum for discussion and advice, isn't it?

euronorris

LucyTheDwarf wrote: »

My boyfriend is Dutch. I'm English, grammar school educated, and consider myself to have above average spelling and grammar skills (I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, but I see so much worse), yet my boyfriend constantly corrects my English (spoken and written). Poor spelling and grammar in the workplace is one of my pet hates - I can barely understand some of the emails I receive at work. Worse than poor spelling and grammar though is when someone uses the wrong word, consistently. One of my colleagues does not know the difference between "whether" and "rather", and sadly the phrase "whether than" pops up in his emails regularly. It drives me mad.

I used to see this a lot too (still do with a few friends) and it drives me crazy too!

It amazes me how many Dutch people think that their English is not good enough. They have excellent English skills, they just lack the colloquialisms.

That is a really good tip - thanks! I feel silly not to have thought about it before actually. I have tried reading newspapers, but I find them too difficult to understand in any but light hearted stories (e.g. the articles about Sinterklaas arriving in the Netherlands). Cosmo's mix of shoes and sex would be less mentally challenging. I watch Dutch TV but find it's a bit (er.. a lot) too fast to take everything in - I know the words on paper, but struggle to recognise the words when spoken.

Haha, I've got better at listening, but I usually lose track after the 3rd or 4th sentence as I simply cannot translate what is being said at the same rate as it is being said! lol

I try to be disciplined with TV. If I watch English or American programmes, I mute them and read the Dutch subtitles. Or just have them on very quiet so I can't make out all the words, because muted TV is a bit weird. Last week I watched a Spanish TV programme (my Spanish only goes to GCSE level, so I wasn't getting much help from the sound) with Dutch subtitles, and I was really proud of myself that I stayed with it (2 hours), and understood what was going on.

I might try that idea of turning the volume down and see how I get on. Great tip! Thanks!

Are you living in NL now then, or do you receive a few Dutch channels in the UK?

LucyTheDwarf

I live in the UK, I just visit NL often, and want to learn Dutch, as I hope to live there in a couple of years.

poet123

Fly_Baby wrote: »

Well, forgive me, but after reading so many comments about the OP's poor English I started wondering that maybe his/her English was indeed much worse than it seemed to me from the original post, so I wanted to double-check with native speakers but found accusations in God knows what in return. This is a forum for discussion and advice, isn't it?

I am not sure what your problem is I have explained the reason people made comments regarding the standard of the written english the OP displayed.

Let me put it another way. If the OP had been about the standard of driving in the UK and the writer had just been banned for dangerous driving, the same type of comment would have been made. People in glass houses etc. if the OP had been about driving though, it would have elicited no comment re spelling or grammar.

Also, the OP stated further down the thread that she had written the post with "attack" (?) in mind, so it was clearly not a quest for advice nor even an attempt to stimulate debate.

blckbrd

How bloody funny is this thread! Wonder where the OP is. Perhaps she imploded.

LucyTheDwarf

poet123 wrote: »

Also, the OP stated further down the thread that she had written the post with "attack" (?) in mind, so it was clearly not a quest for advice nor even an attempt to stimulate debate.

It was Fly Baby who was asking for advice, not the OP, in that he/she isn't a native speaker of English, and wanted to see how the OP's first post could have been improved.

The opening thread showed some clumsy writing / lack of proof reading, but it wasn't diabolical. It was readable, so I could see how the problems would not necessarily be obvious to someone for whom English was not a first language - regardless of the fact that Fly Baby's English appears to be very good.

poet123

Fly_Baby wrote: »

No obligation surely but then why not do it? If they clearly see the mistakes?

OP was not decrying others - he/she was pointing out how inadequate language teaching has become and did not say that his/her language was great as opposed. Yet all he/she got back was personalised comments and not a single post of constructive criticism (apart from 'there' vs 'their').

Is he/she right then? Nobody can spell yet everybody is happy to criticise others?

The above post from flybaby was just one of several where she ran to the defence of the OP and queried why others were critical. So, she may have started out making a query based around her own language issues, but when she was answered still she did not seem happy with the response.

She quoted my post in her reply this morning and I was just trying to give another example/simile of why the responses were as they were.

perplexed.com

bitemebankers wrote: »

Wow - six pages off posts about speling and gramer.

Liked that one, thanks!

While I'm here: Why, oh why is "could of" instead of "could have" so popular?