Dismissed - Gross Misconduct - Unauthorised Absence

Fire_Fox

Kay_Peel wrote: »

Your depression has its roots in your workplace. To me, it sounds less like depression and more like 'unhappiness at work'. For instance, when you say that you can't work but that you can still make plans and go out for your birthday, I can see why your doctor wouldn't give you a sick note! Clinically depressed people don't go out on their birthdays, but unhappy people can do.

Sorry but that is completely wrong. Clinical depression is classified as mild, moderate or severe, and even within that people respond differently to a given situation and from day to day. I struggle with ongoing moderate depression (and work with many clients in the same boat) and it doesn't necessarily make your entire life stop - if it does that is a breakdown and you may need to be sectioned. The vast majority of people with depression continue with some semblance of reality, they may give an outward appearance of participation yet inwardly feel emotionally distant or unable to cope.

OFTBC

Right had all the info I requested come through today, ONly had a quick read through but there is some interesting stuff I need to look into. What interested me the most was they gave me the tracking numbers. I went to the royal mail website with the number from the notice to attend disciplinary hearing letter and got this message,

Recorded Signed For™ items are only tracked after the item has been delivered. Depending on whether the item was sent first or second class, this may be a few days after posting. Please try again later.
Information on your item is not yet available online.

So considering the letter was sent on the 7th then it suggests to me for what ever reason it wasn't delievered so of course I was tottaly unaware of the hearing.

Once I have had chance to go through it all I shall be back on here.

I have decided that I do want my job back but I will have to deal with that if the oppertunity comes along.

Thanks.

olly300

OFTBC wrote: »

Right had all the info I requested come through today, ONly had a quick read through but there is some interesting stuff I need to look into. What interested me the most was they gave me the tracking numbers. I went to the royal mail website with the number from the notice to attend disciplinary hearing letter and got this message,

So considering the letter was sent on the 7th then it suggests to me for what ever reason it wasn't delievered so of course I was tottaly unaware of the hearing.

Once I have had chance to go through it all I shall be back on here.

I have decided that I do want my job back but I will have to deal with that if the oppertunity comes along.

Thanks.

You need to act in "good faith".

So you need to print out the screen shot with the number you entered and RM message clearly showing.

And inform them politely at your hearing with copies of the screenshot that you didn't get the letter, and as they posted it they need to report it as lost to RM to make a claim against them for compensation.

Of course they won't do that but you need to make sure this is clearly recorded in the minutes of the meeting in case you have to take further action.

Also if there was any local industrial action or problems during that time you need to obtain written proof i.e. letter from RM, local newspaper report stating that for your own paperwork.

This is because judges don't tend to believe people who claim that RM lost tracked letters repeatedly if the other party has the receipts.

OFTBC

Had a email through today from the company and they have put the appeal back by a week, Seems to me they either genuinely can't make it or they need more time to look into things, It's OK for me as it does give me that extra time to prepare and get my case file put together.

The only thing taht is annoying me slightly is they have still not sent out my P45 which I need in order to at least sign on at a agency for some temporary work.

blckbrd

Doctors often sign people off for depression as the feelings/symptoms they describe are just that. A little delving, however, often leads to a more accurate diagnosis of stress.

Work related stress is very much a health and safety issue with which employers should deal (and of course employees have their own responsibilities in this regard). HSE link regarding employers legal requirements:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/stress/furtheradvice/legalresponsibility.htm.

It may interest you OP that one of the aims of the UK National Work-Stress Network is to have work-related stress recognised as an industrial injury. Their booklet:

http://www.workstress.net/downloads/stress%20booklet.pdf

I'm glad to note that you have started the appeal process as any employment reference will likely refer to your having been dismissed for gross misconduct - not attractive to new employers.

Hopefully your union will be able to represent you and hopefully the TU rep will be as able as he/she is keen. Ensure that you do not skimp on detail. Say exactly how you have felt/been made to feel from the earlier disciplinary to date. You must try to mitigate all of the actions that have contributed to the decision to dismiss. Bring up the breach of confidentiality and make management investigate. Ask colleagues if they are willing to act as witnesses for you - their not obliged to.

You'll probably find all this extremely arduous so ensure you're looking after yourself and finding things to do to keep positive and maintain your stamina. Good luck.

jdturk

blckbrd wrote: »

It may interest you OP that one of the aims of the UK National Work-Stress Network is to have work-related stress recognised as an industrial injury. Their booklet:

The problem is that for one person something may be stressful whereas another its not. A broken leg for one person is a broken leg for another and if it comes to a point where it is seen as an industrial injury then there will be an explosion of cases and companies being sued. Its a bad bad bad idea!

OFTBC

Sorry for bringing this thread back up after ll this time and my lack of contact during that time I just wanted o do an update.

It took a while to have an appeal hearing. Only had it yesterday after they kept calling it off so took 3 and half months to have it. In the mean time I submitted a claim to the employment tribunal for which I learned at the start of this week has been accepted by them and now my former employer as 28 days to respond.

I had m appeal hearing yesterday which was with the new general manager who only recently started at the depot so knew nothing about it really so had an open mind. There was also a HR manager from a different depot as the one from ours who had previously sent all the letters etc is off sick.

At the hearing I was represented my my site steward and also the regional officer. We focused on them failing to follow procedure and stressed how my illness meant I was unable to deal with the situation at the time.

The interesting points that came up was following 3 weeks off sick an employee must see a doctor before returning to work. They are only saying I had two weeks off before I returned when in fact it was 7 weeks. The union was not aware of my dismissal until a month after I had been dismissed. Normal protocol is for them to inform the union immediately. We argued that if they had told my Union rep that I had walked out they could have got in contact with me and I would most likely have responded to the union and the situation we are now in could have easily been avoided.

The general manager seemed very surprised and unaware that the normal procedure had not been followed. We informed them that depression is a disability yet they treated it as an every day cold where as they should have handled it in a much better and caring way.

It seemed to go well and it has been adjourned for a week whilst he looks into all the stuff we brought up and will interview the HR manager as well or her to give her side of the story and she dealt with it all.

Dick_Van_Dyke

OFTBC wrote: »

Sorry for bringing this thread back up after ll this time and my lack of contact during that time I just wanted o do an update.

It took a while to have an appeal hearing. Only had it yesterday after they kept calling it off so took 3 and half months to have it. In the mean time I submitted a claim to the employment tribunal for which I learned at the start of this week has been accepted by them and now my former employer as 28 days to respond.

I had m appeal hearing yesterday which was with the new general manager who only recently started at the depot so knew nothing about it really so had an open mind. There was also a HR manager from a different depot as the one from ours who had previously sent all the letters etc is off sick.

At the hearing I was represented my my site steward and also the regional officer. We focused on them failing to follow procedure and stressed how my illness meant I was unable to deal with the situation at the time.

The interesting points that came up was following 3 weeks off sick an employee must see a doctor before returning to work. They are only saying I had two weeks off before I returned when in fact it was 7 weeks. The union was not aware of my dismissal until a month after I had been dismissed. Normal protocol is for them to inform the union immediately. We argued that if they had told my Union rep that I had walked out they could have got in contact with me and I would most likely have responded to the union and the situation we are now in could have easily been avoided.

The general manager seemed very surprised and unaware that the normal procedure had not been followed. We informed them that depression is a disability yet they treated it as an every day cold where as they should have handled it in a much better and caring way.

It seemed to go well and it has been adjourned for a week whilst he looks into all the stuff we brought up and will interview the HR manager as well or her to give her side of the story and she dealt with it all.

Your union is making up rules and laws that wont be given much relevance by a tribunial

Any inspection before returning to work is entirely set by the employer and has very little if any legal bearing or relevance here
As with the union notification thing. I would add that telling a union of a dismissal might actually breach DPA. Any communication with the union is in my view entirely your job and not theres.

As for the next bit depression is not automatically a disability and if this is their argument I hope that you have very good medical evidence

Overall it seems you have tried to fight the dismissal with completely irrelevent arguments.

What is relevent is what you were dismissed for and nothing else. by going in and arguing completely seperate points you likely have lost your appeal due to poor planning and presentation.

OFTBC

!!!!!!_Van_Dyke wrote: »

Your union is making up rules and laws that wont be given much relevance by a tribunial

Any inspection before returning to work is entirely set by the employer and has very little if any legal bearing or relevance here
As with the union notification thing. I would add that telling a union of a dismissal might actually breach DPA. Any communication with the union is in my view entirely your job and not theres.

As for the next bit depression is not automatically a disability and if this is their argument I hope that you have very good medical evidence

Overall it seems you have tried to fight the dismissal with completely irrelevent arguments.

What is relevent is what you were dismissed for and nothing else. by going in and arguing completely seperate points you likely have lost your appeal due to poor planning and presentation.

This isn't in my claim. This was only brought up yesterday.

The union isn't making up rules or laws they are just stating what is in the site agreements and what is company policy. All that has been brought up is what is in black and white. It is their rules and policies and they have failed to follow them which is very unusual for them as they usually follow everything by the book.

Dick_Van_Dyke

OFTBC wrote: »

This isn't in my claim. This was only brought up yesterday.

The union isn't making up rules or laws they are just stating what is in the site agreements and what is company policy. All that has been brought up is what is in black and white. It is their rules and policies and they have failed to follow them which is very unusual for them as they usually follow everything by the book.

And its all completely irrelevent to why you have been dismissed
You are appealing your dismissal, not starting a seperate grievance

I wonder how many people are terribly advised by union reps with an agenda.

It doesnt really matter what the company policy states about telling a union because it has no bearing on your dismissal and is potentially in breach of the data protection act anyway