Rented flat being sold

clutton_2

you do not necessarily need documentatoin to prove that a tenancy exists - if rent has been paid all that time, then a tenancy exists in law. could anyone in the family find any other proof that they have lived there since 1930's ? School reports, old bills, bank statements etc etc

Mark_Hewitt

An update on this.
My Aunty has been told by the new landlords that they are no longer going to pay her water bill and that is now her responsibility.

I would assume they can't just suddenly declare a particular utility bill is nothing to do with them, when it has always in the past been included in her rent?

Pitlanepiglet

N79 wrote: »

Right - if the tenancy really does date from the 1940s then I'm afraid that specific opinion will be difficult to give - my oldest tenancy dates from the 70s (which I inherited from another LL) and is a rent act tenancy so this is the limit of my expertise - this is even earlier (although I think the rent act added its protections to earlier tenancies to stop the abuses of Rachman et al - it certainly changed the repairing obligations of Ts).

However, sammyjammy is definately wrong. Your aunty will have much stronger security of tenure and the change of LL will not impact that. In effect there is no way for a LL to evict her unless their are rental arreas or they die. Even on death the security of tenure may pass on within your family. (Edit - read the thread and believe that you aunty will have succession rights from your grandmother but you should get this checked by a housing law specialist solicitor). It is also not possible for the LL to raise the rent without the approval of a rent committee.

Your Aunties new LL may try to get you aunty to give up her rights in exchange for a payment (will be 10s of thousands, possibly around 25000 to 30000 if the open market valuation is 60000). Your aunty should seek independent legal advice before agreeing to any demotion of the tenancy. The LL would have to pay for this advice.

If the previous LL has tricked your aunty in giving up her rights then she needs to seek legal advice asap. If the LL failed to ensure that a T has independent legal advice on the implications of chaning the tenancy then there is a very strong probability that a court will reinstate the regulated tenancy.

Thats some general background for you to start researching your aunty's posistion.

To any LLs reading this who think that English LL&T law favours the T just read the above and realise how lucky we are to now have a legal regime that favours LLs so strongly.

This is good advice.

Re the water bill, no they almost certainly can't make unilateral changes but it is uncommon for LL to pay the tenant's water bill - although I imagine it was much more common at the time the tenancy was granted.

You/they need to get advice ASAP, don't faff around with advice on the internet where we don't have all the details to establish the tenancy type and you can't sue anyone when they get it wrong.

Try CAB/Shelter but better go and see a solitor.

Mark_Hewitt

Pitlanepiglet wrote: »

You/they need to get advice ASAP, don't faff around with advice on the internet where we don't have all the details to establish the tenancy type and you can't sue anyone when they get it wrong.

Try CAB/Shelter but better go and see a solitor.

Tell me about it! I've been saying "Go to Citizens Advice!" like a record stuck on repeat for the last month now, but she hasn't bothered, and is still asking what she should do, but she can't know unless she is in posession of the facts! As you say googling and forums only takes you so far.

One thing I did find in googling however. Is that assuming my gran has a protected tenancy then when she dies (she's 92!) then the tenancy will pass to my aunty but only as an assured tenancy which has different rights attached to it, is this correct?

N79

Mark_Hewitt wrote: »

Tell me about it! I've been saying "Go to Citizens Advice!" like a record stuck on repeat for the last month now, but she hasn't bothered, and is still asking what she should do, but she can't know unless she is in posession of the facts! As you say googling and forums only takes you so far.

One thing I did find in googling however. Is that assuming my gran has a protected tenancy then when she dies (she's 92!) then the tenancy will pass to my aunty but only as an assured tenancy which has different rights attached to it, is this correct?

It will depend on the exact type of tenancy your Gran has and whether it has already passed (form tenancy term = succession) as there are limits on the number of times tenancies can be passed. For example, if you Gran has already inherited the tenancy from your Grandfather then it may not pass to your Aunt.

Being honest, I believe that these questions really needs a specialist solicitor (it is really out of CABs league but hopefully they will be able to give you the details of a local specialist solicitor) who can review your Gran's paperwork.

Your first post actually got me diggng a bit and it is clear that the original tenancy here actually predates all statutory tenancies. The first rent act was not until the 50s and the first rent acts with serious bite for LLs (ie protected tenancies) were all later still. I am guessing but I would presume that this tenancy would have started life as a common law tenancy (with repairing obligations!!). Exactly what changes have occured over the years as a result of the rent acts and any changes negotiated by LL and T are the key to understanding the type of tenancy and therefore the rights that your Gran has along with the succession rights that your Aunt has.

paddy's_mum

One can only hope that the new owner of the building has taken legal advice .. before throwing out all these orders and opening a very expensive can of worms.

Mark_Hewitt

N79 wrote: »

It will depend on the exact type of tenancy your Gran has and whether it has already passed (form tenancy term = succession) as there are limits on the number of times tenancies can be passed. For example, if you Gran has already inherited the tenancy from your Grandfather then it may not pass to your Aunt.

Yes, it's almost certainly the case that the tenancy has already passed from my grandfather, who died in the 1960's to my Grandmother. Although I believe (from google) again that it can be 'inherited' twice, so it could pass to my aunty, but no further.

Being honest, I believe that these questions really needs a specialist solicitor (it is really out of CABs league but hopefully they will be able to give you the details of a local specialist solicitor) who can review your Gran's paperwork.

Looking at the complications I'm tending to agree. Especially considering she is considering spending tens of thousands purchasing the property. A few hundred on professional advice would be worthwhile.

Your first post actually got me diggng a bit and it is clear that the original tenancy here actually predates all statutory tenancies. The first rent act was not until the 50s and the first rent acts with serious bite for LLs (ie protected tenancies) were all later still. I am guessing but I would presume that this tenancy would have started life as a common law tenancy (with repairing obligations!!). Exactly what changes have occured over the years as a result of the rent acts and any changes negotiated by LL and T are the key to understanding the type of tenancy and therefore the rights that your Gran has along with the succession rights that your Aunt has.

Interesting! I had assumed that all tenancies taken out before 1989 were 'protected' and all. I would imagine there aren't too many people still in a property they started to rent before the war!

Mark_Hewitt

paddy's_mum wrote: »

One can only hope that the new owner of the building has taken legal advice .. before throwing out all these orders and opening a very expensive can of worms.

I get the impression probably not. Thing is my aunty will likely just go along with all of it, paying the water bill, buying the house for whatever they ask for. She tends to just go along with things, I've been trying to get her to spend £300 on a new sofa for about 3 years now, without going into details, she wouldn't miss £300!

Whereas I'm trying to get through to her that her being a tenant in there changes things massively. The flat upstairs just sold for £66k, her flat is unrefurbished so I reckon on the open market is worth around £50k, but the fact is that it has a protected tenant in there, which I assume will have a significant bearing on the 'market' price, but how much I have no idea.

My aunty is 62 years old btw and retired. So getting on, but I wouldn't say she's elderly, so she's more than up to doing all this for herself.

poppysarah

re: water bill - she should check that both flats are dealt with separately rather than her ending up paying the bill. She should probably get advice on whether she has to pay it now if it's been previously included in the rent

clutton_2

many solicitors have a free half hour surgery .... you could take aunty to one then she may take notice of what "proper" advice you get

When put up for sale, long term assured tenanted properties often only attract half of the current market value

aunty cannot be made to pay a bill which is not in her name. Hopefully she is not going to phone the water board and ask for a new supply/bill .....

unless the property has 2 separate supplies, she would be paying for upstairs' water as well !!!

does she pay her own council tax ?