Boiler relocation - where too!?

vkusuman

andrew-b wrote: »

Don't know about npower (suspect may be same though), but you'll be wasting your time getting BG in. They send a "salesman" not someone with much knowledge of boilers! I caught the one they sent me out with a few technical questions that he was completely clueless on! Though TBH the guy they sent us was a bit of an insult to salesmen! He spent ages in the toilet (couldn't help but hear he was making a personal call on his mobile in there!), had a non-working printer that left him helpless and making multiple calls to try sort it. He was going to have to go away and come back (by then i was getting fed up!) so I lent a printer cable before he could even give me a quote. Gave the quote on the spot..and then there was the claim that i needed a new hot water cylinder based on tapping it gently with a finger and claiming to hear "chalk" in it. He wouldn't quote without cylinder...i had 3 other quotes made by proper heating engineers..not one of them mentioned the cylinder being a problem - 3 years later still not a problem. Then the priced about £2k above everyone else....which was after their "discounts" ..where i had limited time to take up the discount else i'd "miss out". Despite telling him the price was £2k too much he said "well it's ok because you can get it on credit" mmm ok still more than £2k too much!!! I took my printer cable back and sent him packing within about 30 seconds. A total farce!

Seriously just cancel the appointment with BG ..you won't regret it!

I booked an appt with BG with the idea of getting a ballpark estimate and hopefully some useful information... but they didnt even turn up. after what you say, probably it was for better that he didnt turn up, saved my time.

b830ag2

andrew-b wrote: »

Seriously just cancel the appointment with BG ..you won't regret it!

I've not made the appointment yet, but going by what you say then maybe I won't...!

mikey72

b830ag2 wrote: »

Hi all,

Thanks for the advice!

I have decided (cost permitting), to relocate the boiler position to within our small utility room.
There seems to be quite a lot of advice/thought upon NOT locating the boiler within a bedroom cupboard, and after a lot of thought I tend to agree. So the options remaining are the utility room or to keep the existing location within the kitchen.

Considering the utility does have adequate space for it, and relocation would free up space in the kitchen and allow the introduction of a new radiator, I think I am going to go for relocation. It may cost a bit more, but seeing as the boiler is going to be in place for (fingers crossed) another 15 years, we might as well bite the bullet and do it now whilst the system is undergoing maintenance/upheaval.

HOWEVER! …I am now trying to decide whether the update the system to a sealed system, with combi boiler.

We currently have a vented system with a heat only boiler. One plumber that has quoted has recommended we get a combi boiler and change to a sealed system. This does have it’s merits….instant hot water, no storage cylinder, no tanks in the loft. Although there are a few potential disadvantages also, and I was hoping someone might be able to offer advice?

We have a 4-bed semi, 1928 construction, solid brick walls. Currently 11 radiators throughout, 6 upstairs, 5 downstairs. I want to add one downstairs (kitchen), because it gets really cold compared to the rest of downstairs, which in turn is generally colder than upstairs too, which gets quite warm. There is one bathroom (shower and bath and sink for hot water) and one WC room (small sink). We also have one sink in the kitchen. Our current standard condensing boiler is rated at 18kW. We have been quoted for a combi condensing boiler, rated at 24kW, with hot water flow rates of 11.5 l/min @35deg.

My concerns are;

Boiler size
Although 24kW is larger than the current 18kW boiler, a combi would also have to cope with the hot water heating. Add the fact I would like to add a radiator to the kitchen, I am concerned that 24kW would not be enough for my system

Boiler hot water flow
The 11.5 l/min rating at +35deg…..is this enough for three sinks, a bath and a shower? I’ve no idea…
The bath would never be running at the same time as the shower, but it may be that one or two of the sinks may require use at the same time the bath is running

Boiler expansion tank
Is the in-built 10 litre expansion tank sufficient for a 4-bed system, comprising 11 or 12 radiators?

System leakage
Has anyone out there ever upgraded from a vented system to a sealed system? What are the risks of getting a system leak following conversion to higher pressure system?

Shower pressure
We currently have a thermostatic shower driven by a separate pump. I am aware that this pump would have to be removed for a sealed system and the shower should be linked directly to the pressurised hot and cold supplies. Will we still get good pressure through the shower in a sealed system?

I think that’s it.

I’m going to get a free quote from British Gas and maybe NPower too. I think they will come in with ridiculous quotes, but atleast there will be the opportunity to quiz them on my concerns and get their opinion for free.

Thanks,
Andy.

At least a 30kw boiler. The expansion tank is designed into the boiler.
Yes, I've seen radiators leak, usually just weap, but I've seen one jet across the upstairs bathroom and put a huge stain on the ceiling below, about two hours after being refilled with the new boiler.
You could probably drown in the shower from a 30kw combi, but it does decrease if someone runs the hot tap.
30kw combi's are huge.

Mankysteve

My parents are happy with there BG installed boiler not sure what sized boiler they got but it is proper worchester. They did the get catity wall for "free" they paid a fair bit for it so you hope they'd do it for free.

Just make sure you shop around and ask other peoples advice.

Also personal I would make sure if getting a combi that it can accept a warm water input in case i decided fit solar heat panels. modulateing boiler i belive the techincal term is you never the goverment may one day make it worth our while. Plus iam a bit of green hippy.

EliteHeat

mikey72 wrote: »

30kw combi's are huge.

They are the exact same size as their lesser rated brothers for that make & model.

A 30kw combi should give fairly decent performance but is by no means considered an extravagance. Think long and hard about getting anything smaller, expecially if there is any possibility of you ever wanting to run a bath in the future

b830ag2

EliteHeat wrote: »

A 24Kw combi will not give you a flow rate of 11.5 lpm with a raise in temp of 35 degrees, it will give you 9.8 lpm.
.

Yeah sorry, ok I meant 28kW. I was referring to the Vaillant Ecotec pro28 which is a 28kw boiler but 24kW for CH only.

b830ag2

I've now booked in two engineers to come round and check out my system to provide advice and quote....one tomorrow night and one next week.

I've decided that I want the boiler moving into the utility...and....that I want to convert my system from a vented to a sealed system. Only problem is, I can't decide whether to go for a Combi boiler or a System boiler with associated pressurised storage cylinder. The combi boiler is the cheaper option, but my main concern there is the hot water capacity. A few people have advised against getting a smaller combi as it wouldn't cope with our system demands in winter. I agree. A bigger combi sounds better....but how much bigger?!

Looking around at some good manufacturers I've shortlisted the Vaillant Ecotec 831 or 837, the Worcester Greenstar 30CDi or 37CDi, and the Baxi Duo-Tec HEA33 or 40, all in the region 30-40kW. However...the range in rated water flow (@+35deg) is 12.7 to 16 l/min. Is this enough? Considering that the temp increase will undoubtedly be higher in winter, reducing this flow rate.

Alternatively, if I got a system boiler and cylinder, then there would be no worries with hot water flow rate, or boiler gas supply (lower power boiler), but this would obviously be a more expensive installation. I also think (?) that sucha system would attract more annual maintenance and hence cost, is this correct?

Why is there not a win-win option out there?!!!

Canucklehead

b830ag2 wrote: »

I've now booked in two engineers to come round and check out my system to provide advice and quote....one tomorrow night and one next week.

I've decided that I want the boiler moving into the utility...and....that I want to convert my system from a vented to a sealed system. Only problem is, I can't decide whether to go for a Combi boiler or a System boiler with associated pressurised storage cylinder. The combi boiler is the cheaper option, but my main concern there is the hot water capacity. A few people have advised against getting a smaller combi as it wouldn't cope with our system demands in winter. I agree. A bigger combi sounds better....but how much bigger?!

Looking around at some good manufacturers I've shortlisted the Vaillant Ecotec 831 or 837, the Worcester Greenstar 30CDi or 37CDi, and the Baxi Duo-Tec HEA33 or 40, all in the region 30-40kW. However...the range in rated water flow (@+35deg) is 12.7 to 16 l/min. Is this enough? Considering that the temp increase will undoubtedly be higher in winter, reducing this flow rate.

Alternatively, if I got a system boiler and cylinder, then there would be no worries with hot water flow rate, or boiler gas supply (lower power boiler), but this would obviously be a more expensive installation. I also think (?) that sucha system would attract more annual maintenance and hence cost, is this correct?

Why is there not a win-win option out there?!!!

Good morning: until the mains flow/pressure rates and the gas supply are both measured, the suitability and expense of either a combi or system boiler with an unvented cylinder is unknown. An unvented cylinder should have an annual service by a RGI who holds a 'G3'. More advice available here.

HTH

Canucklehead

b830ag2

Right then....

I've measured my Mains Water supply.

I took a 10 litre bucket and turned the kitchen cold tap on full blast.
Just over 30 seconds....so about 19 l/min.

I also bought a pressure gauge with braided tube and hooked it up to the cold feed to the washing machine. 3.5 bar.

Is this enough for a Combi?
Seems reasonable to me.

I've been having a think a bit more about it, and I think the Worcester Greenstar 37CDi might be on the cards....

The gas supply pipe might be have to upgraded to a 22mm pipe, but do you think I'm right in assuming that Mains 3.5 bar and 19 l/min would be ok for this size of boiler?

cheers,
Andy