Interesting article on IVAs

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  • Charco_2
    Charco_2 Posts: 1,677 Forumite
    edited 2 December 2009 at 6:25PM
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    Good advert :rolleyes:

    Could have told you who'd be in it before i read it!

    "As many as one in five debt repayment plans are falling by the wayside, leaving thousands of Britons in danger of going bankrupt."
    Clever IMPLICATION that one in five IVAs fail when in fact thats not really the case... one in five debt repayment plans fail, well that's a different thing!

    "Many individuals who have taken out an individual voluntary arrangement (IVA) to reduce their debt have been unable to stick to the repayments and now have a lapsed plan that threatens to tip their finances over the edge."
    Does that mean that these IVAs were doomed to failure from the very beginning? NO! Circumstances change.
    No-one goes out to run up massively unmanagable debts - but circumstances change.


    Interestingly (about the only thing interesting in the whole article) we're told the CCCS has only suggested IVAs for 2% of those who have called them in the first half of the year... that's down 1% on previous years, going by the claims on their own website.

    So let me get this straight.
    The whole industry steps up and they step down!? In a recession!? With small businesses going to the wall right, left and centre!? With more and more houses in negative equity and levels of unmanagebale unsecured borrowing rising? Really? They're recommending LESS IVAs? Is there a reasonable explanation for this other than the IPs are bogeymen!?
    Would you ask the wolves to look after the sheep?
    CCCS funded by banks
  • fermi
    fermi Posts: 40,546 Forumite
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    I presume the Guardian must have had a 'heads up' on these stats?

    http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/otherinformation/statistics/IVAs/ivas.htm

    Will be interesting to see on Friday.
    New Official Statistics showing the outcome status for IVAs registered in England and Wales each year from 1987 until 2008 will be published here on Friday 4 December 2009. These will report numbers and percentages of IVAs that have completed their term; have failed; or are still ongoing.
    Free/impartial debt advice: National Debtline | StepChange Debt Charity | Find your local CAB

    IVA & fee charging DMP companies: Profits from misery, motivated ONLY by greed
  • debtinfo
    debtinfo Posts: 7,012 Forumite
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    also they say that the people have lost out by £1,000s, but if they hadnt have been in the IVA they would have paid the same if not more to their creditors. Since they cannot pay at this moment in time it matters not really which things they have tried before
    Hi, im Debtinfo, i am an ex insolvency examiner and over the years have personally dealt with thousands of bankruptcy cases.
    Please note that any views i put forth are not those of my former employer The Insolvency Service and do not constitute professional advice, you should always seek professional advice before entering insolvency proceedings.
  • Charco_2
    Charco_2 Posts: 1,677 Forumite
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    fermi wrote: »
    I presume the Guardian must have had a 'heads up' on these stats?

    http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/otherinformation/statistics/IVAs/ivas.htm

    Will be interesting to see on Friday.

    Hey Fermi,

    No "heads up", the article is a month old, dates back to the same time that every company with their nose in trough made their quarterly statements on how the market is moving, commenting on their analysis and readings from the statisitcs and lies.
    Would you ask the wolves to look after the sheep?
    CCCS funded by banks
  • fermi
    fermi Posts: 40,546 Forumite
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    Looks that way.

    I get the impression that the official stats may be worse than that article suggests. But we shall see tomorrow.
    Free/impartial debt advice: National Debtline | StepChange Debt Charity | Find your local CAB

    IVA & fee charging DMP companies: Profits from misery, motivated ONLY by greed
  • Tixy
    Tixy Posts: 31,455 Forumite
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    Charco wrote: »
    Good advert :rolleyes:

    Could have told you who'd be in it before i read it!

    "As many as one in five debt repayment plans are falling by the wayside, leaving thousands of Britons in danger of going bankrupt."
    Clever IMPLICATION that one in five IVAs fail when in fact thats not really the case... one in five debt repayment plans fail, well that's a different thing!

    "Many individuals who have taken out an individual voluntary arrangement (IVA) to reduce their debt have been unable to stick to the repayments and now have a lapsed plan that threatens to tip their finances over the edge."
    Does that mean that these IVAs were doomed to failure from the very beginning? NO! Circumstances change.
    No-one goes out to run up massively unmanagable debts - but circumstances change.
    Of course. It is for the very reason that circumstances change that some of us think that DMPs are far more practical for many people with debt problems.


    Interestingly (about the only thing interesting in the whole article) we're told the CCCS has only suggested IVAs for 2% of those who have called them in the first half of the year... that's down 1% on previous years, going by the claims on their own website.

    So let me get this straight.
    The whole industry steps up and they step down!? In a recession!? With small businesses going to the wall right, left and centre!? With more and more houses in negative equity and levels of unmanagebale unsecured borrowing rising? Really? They're recommending LESS IVAs? Is there a reasonable explanation for this other than the IPs are bogeymen!?
    Maybe because with the benefit of time they have seen that as so many IVAs fail they are now more reluctant to recommend them to people?
    A smile enriches those who receive without making poorer those who give
    or "It costs nowt to be nice"
  • Charco_2
    Charco_2 Posts: 1,677 Forumite
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    Of course. It is for the very reason that circumstances change that some of us think that DMPs are far more practical for many people with debt problems.
    How? That doesn't even make sense!
    By going into a DMP you're opening yourself up to the fact that circumstances can change over a longer period of time! Fine I suppose if you win the lottery or great auntie Flo dies and leaves you a bundle but if circumstances were changing for the better then it wouldn't be a problem (either in a DMP or an IVA).


    Maybe because with the benefit of time they have seen that as so many IVAs fail they are now more reluctant to recommend them to people?
    Can't win, don't try... that's some attitude! Might not win, don try!
    So CCCS do offer IVAs to very select few, the ones whose IVA is tantamount to an open net in football... what about the all the ones in the grey areas, the ones that might require some hard, but not impossible, work to reach that goal? Do they just get lumped in with the DMPs coz that's unregulated and no-one's watching over our shoulders for that.

    (It's not about recommending IVAs people, it's about going through all the options available to an individual and then letting them make their own decision about what they want to do for their own future)

    For me, the failure rates are a misnomer. An irrelevant statistic. Part of the propaganda war between the banks and the debt solution providers.

    Bankruptcies dont fail because there's no way out once you're in.
    DMPs dont "fail" because they are informal... you're in, you're out whatever! DMPs last on average for 18 months (that's just an industry-wide average) - I am yet to see a DMP that had 18 months as it's full term: more like 118 months! Do people coming out of a "failed" DMP somehow find themselves in a better position than people coming out of an failed IVA?

    Hard to see how!
    Would you ask the wolves to look after the sheep?
    CCCS funded by banks
  • Numpty_Monkey
    Numpty_Monkey Posts: 14,196 Forumite
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    What would be good is all the company's that sold failed IVA's had to repay all the fees and payoff the debt of their client , wonder how many they would sell and how many crappy adverts we would have to see

    Fermi your Sig is spot on:T
    PROUD TO BE DEALING WITH MY DEBT NERD #869
    Numpty,Not sure why but I'm crying :o . Of all the peeps on this board you're the kindest & most supportive of all & I'm :mad: & :( for you all at the same time . Wish I was there to give you a big :grouphug: & emergency hobnobs
    xx
    DFD 5/1/16
  • Charco wrote: »
    Of course. It is for the very reason that circumstances change that some of us think that DMPs are far more practical for many people with debt problems.
    How? That doesn't even make sense!
    By going into a DMP you're opening yourself up to the fact that circumstances can change over a longer period of time! Fine I suppose if you win the lottery or great auntie Flo dies and leaves you a bundle but if circumstances were changing for the better then it wouldn't be a problem (either in a DMP or an IVA).


    Maybe because with the benefit of time they have seen that as so many IVAs fail they are now more reluctant to recommend them to people?
    Can't win, don't try... that's some attitude! Might not win, don try!
    So CCCS do offer IVAs to very select few, the ones whose IVA is tantamount to an open net in football... what about the all the ones in the grey areas, the ones that might require some hard, but not impossible, work to reach that goal? Do they just get lumped in with the DMPs coz that's unregulated and no-one's watching over our shoulders for that.

    (It's not about recommending IVAs people, it's about going through all the options available to an individual and then letting them make their own decision about what they want to do for their own future)

    For me, the failure rates are a misnomer. An irrelevant statistic. Part of the propaganda war between the banks and the debt solution providers.

    Bankruptcies dont fail because there's no way out once you're in.
    DMPs dont "fail" because they are informal... you're in, you're out whatever! DMPs last on average for 18 months (that's just an industry-wide average) - I am yet to see a DMP that had 18 months as it's full term: more like 118 months! Do people coming out of a "failed" DMP somehow find themselves in a better position than people coming out of an failed IVA?

    Hard to see how!

    Hello Charco

    'IVA failure rates are a misnomer, An irrelevant statistic'?

    Taking into account that these are also people, we have to say we dont see failed IVAs quite in the same light.

    Just an opinion and no offence meant

    NED-CAB
  • Charco_2
    Charco_2 Posts: 1,677 Forumite
    edited 3 December 2009 at 5:33PM
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    I just knew when i wrote it that someone was going to have a go at that, it was not meant in a Stalin-esque way. ("One death is a tragedy, one million deaths is a statistic"). Someone was going to "point score" on it and deliberately ignore the context!

    Of course people in debts are still people whether you're speaking about one debtor, a hundred or a million. The misnomer is in saying that 20% of IVAs fail so they should never have tried to have an IVA in the first place!

    In an ideal world a failure rate of 0% would be great but it's not possible! A great many IVAs fail in the first year, this is because they were either unaffordable (do you know who now publishes the guidlines on what is and what is not affordable expenditures?) or because the debtor is just someone who doesn't want to pay debt - not to the banks, not in a DMP and not through an IVA.
    Would you ask the wolves to look after the sheep?
    CCCS funded by banks
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