My Moneyclaim VS Clampers - Advice Required

jaybee909

Hello; if anyone could help me with the following; I'd be very grateful.

I'm currently in the process of trying to claim over £140 back from a Private Clamping company.

I am claiming the money back on the basis that the signage was inadequate.

I've been through the appeals procedure with the company, and not been succesful (Unsuprisingly), they say in my case; the signage was adequate.

So the basis for this fight is over the terms of 'adequacy', in which, in this case I have photographic evidence to suggest it is not, and they also do - to suggest that it is.

I was hoping to gain the opportunity to present my photographs and defend myself, though the 'Particluars of Claim' section within the online claim barely allowed enough characters/words to be used to do so properly.

I've followed the steps on MSE and I'm just wondering where this will go now. The Clampers say they will defend their claim.

Does this mean I will be going to court? Or because of its relative 'smallness'', will it be dealt with without my representation?

Kindest regards

James

Premier_2

As with any small claim, you essentially describe the basis of your claim briefly on the summons.

The full evidence can be shown to the judge at the hearing if it gets that far.
Often the judge will instruct the two parties to share such evidence that they intend to rely on before any court hearing.

If the company wishes to defend the claim, then it will usually end up in court (unless settled beforehand).

Alx*27

'Particulars of claim' is an overview. You will present your claim in full at a later stage.

Before you go any further, you need to find out the landowner ASAP and add them to the claim.

The clampers probably have 10 CCJs already and no assets. You will not get your money out of them, but more likely the landowner.

You should be hearing from the court with an Allocation Questionnaire and a hearing date. You will be going to court - but just the small and informal county court.

Can you show us the signage?

Paranoid

I made such a claim and the judge ruled that the signs were not adequate.

There was no sign at the entrance to the car park. Other signs were dotted around the car park but some bays were marked with the names of retail businesses for the use of customers and/or employees. the signs were fixed at a height where they were hidden by a vehicle any higher than a saloon car. Our car was in an unmarked bay.

The issue is whether the sign(s) could be judged to have been see by the driver. In the case law refering to signs the judge said '....like at the entrance to the car park.'

You should also check the wording on the signs and the size. If you issue a claim it will be on a form N1, available on line as you say. Particulars of claim need only be brief but to the point A fee is payable, but will be added to your claim if you win. If the immobilisation company defend the claim you will have to go to court under the small claims procedure. The hearing is very informal and takes place in judges chambers. You can take a friend. If the claim is not defended you can ask for judgement by default.

Photographs are essential, including the entrance to the car park showing no sign (if true). These will give evidence of your claim at a hearing and need not be given in the Particulars of Claim.

You must be aware that winning the case does NOT equate to you getting your money back. The court will take no further action unless initiated by you. - I've been there....!

The clampers are acting as agents for the landowner and you should consider sueing them 'Jointly and Severally', as I did. A good chance the landowners are more reputable than the clampers. Best of luck

jaybee909

Thank you all very much for the replies; its appreciated.

The clampers intend to defend the claim, so it's good to know I will have an opportunity to present my case. I was concerned that after my particulars of claim, that that was it(!).

'Paranoid'; your case sounds a little similar to mine; though perhaps a little more clear cut, so thank you for the useful advice.

As requested I've attached some low-res files of my situation as requested. these we're taken on the day of the incident.
Unfortunately it's a bit of legwork to see them, as I'm too new to be able to post. They're viewable if you go to Photobucket, and search for 'jb-909' within the search box. This will provide an 'Are you looking for this users photos link'

I'd be interested to see if others agree with my position:

Entrance shot:

This shows the only one sign obscured by a hedge. The main entrance pillar to the area did not have a sign.

View from parked.

This area also has only 1 sign. It had to be pointed out to me by a resident, as others have complained of not being able to see them. ("happens every week" he said).
It has been installed at over 3 metres high - and in a way I would almost claim, deliberately out of view.
My eye level is below that of the fence on the left. I feel there is no reason for the sign to be that high.

I've had the appeals letter back from the company who claim this is adequate. It's my position it's not!

Many thanks

James

Coupon-mad

Hi James,
Here's the direct link to your pictures:

http://s445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/jb-909/?action=view&current=Entrance.jpg

FWIW I agree with you, the signs seem inadequate. And personally if it ever happened to me I would ALWAYS take any private clamper (& landowner) to Court, so go for it! After all you've already paid so may as well attempt to get redress even if the signs were clearer.

Have you explored possible other things to include in your evidence?

Is the wording of the documents they handed to you clear/reasonable/signed, do their notices and receipts include their address and an appeals process, was the clamp applied and removed by an SIA registered person? Were their staff threatening in any way?

Does the wording of the sign make the outcome clear - and does the wording specifically cover the situation for which you were clamped?

Have you had sight of the agreement between the clampers and the landowner (do they have permission to clamp there)?

Could any friendly neighbours (who may hate the clampers themselves) be sought to confirm in writing that 'this happens every week, no-one can see the signs...' I know it's a long shot but I would knock on their doors again saying that you're taking the clampers to Court, maybe someone else will come out of the woodwork who is also doing the same (or knows someone who is in your shoes)? You could compare notes & info to strengthen your case.

I am no expert but I would recommend you register and post a new thread on pepipoo if you have not already done so. Some members there have experience of getting money back following clamping:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

As Alx*27 says above, have you also found out who the landowners are and definitely included them in your claim? If you win your claim you can only be paid out once, of course (and make sure you include all your costs) but clampers often ignore CCJs or change their name, etc., to escape paying. You could end up whistling for the money forever, even if you win in Court, if you only name the clampers in the claim.

Whereas the landowners, who are jointly/severally liable because they have presumably appointed the clampers as their agents, are easier to pin down (by bailiffs acting on your behalf - if it comes to that). Or maybe the landowners will fold before the Court date, or maybe one or both won't even show up and you can push for a win by default and choose the one most likely to stump up your cash (the landowner).

HTH

bargepole

jaybee909 wrote: »

... I've had the appeals letter back from the company who claim this is adequate. It's my position it's not!

As others have said, all of this is irrelevant unless you amend your claim to include the landowner.

You can win the case against the clampers, the court can award judgement in your favour, and the clampers just pin it to the wall of the portakabin along with the other 10 CCJs they've got, then wind up the company and restart it as Clampers (2009) Ltd - address is a PO Box number of course.

The court bailiffs, if they can find the clampers, rarely find any assets worth siezing, so you'll just be paying court and bailiff fees and getting nothing back.

The landowner has assets and a reputation to care about, and can be tracked down by bailiffs. Check out other threads and you'll see that this is right.

Alias_Omega

The good news is that the small claims court will cost you the £25, plus £35 for the allocation questionaire.

Everything else is basically free (except time, letters, stamps etc).

The claim will go as follows..

1) You make the claim online, pay the £25 (dont forget to include the court fee - so £140 plus £25 plus interest if you want).
2) The claim will be served, i think its 7 days on served date to be Acknowledged.
3) They have 28 days to Acknowledge the claim & file a defense.
3a) If they dont do 3a), you win by default & can file for judgement
4) They file a defence, its allocated to your local court
5) You complete the allocation questionaire, return it to the court & pay the £35 fee.
6) Your date in court comes, you present your case in the small room with the judge. Just you and they. Dont forget to ask for the £35 extra fee to be included in the judgement. So now £140 + £25 + 35. (£200).

I only got to item 4), i cant say anymore.

Sorry..

Alias

jaybee909

Excellent replies once more, many thanks; and thanks for posting the URL for the pics, thats very helpful.

Just to clarify; are we saying I need to ammend my moneyclaim?

Within the moneyclaim Partciulars of Claim, I have referenced the 'landowner', (As the MSE templates suggest) but don't obviously have them down in name.
Is this whats being suggested here? That I should find the landowners details and include them in my claim, as well as the clamping firm?

Thanks for the other suggestions; I will make a visit to the area again and collect a list of signatures who agree that the signage is inadequate.

Many thanks

James

Paranoid

Yes, the landowners or those who manage the land must be named as well as the clampers. Addresses must be given for service of the documents by the court. This will usually be the Registered Office addresses if the defendant(s) are limited companies. RO addresses can be found via the Companies House site. During my court activities the clampers changed the registered office address 5 times.....

This info goes in the second box of claim form under Defendant(s)

You should put 'Jointly & Severally'

Keep at it...!