From NTL to Sky, is BT line-rental the only one I can have?

girish_2

BexTech wrote:

If you are going down the HD router you really want a True HD HDTV and not just HD Ready, as you read on AV Forum, it just means it can display at least 720 lines, it may do this by upscaling and downscaling, as some screens are only 1024 x 768 when it should be 1280 x 720, some 1337 x 769, some 1024 x 1024.

Still CRT screens give a much better picture than LCD or Plasma, but if you want to take HD seriously, then look for True HD screens, which will have either the minumum spec of 1280 x 720 or the top spec of of 1920 x 1080.

...1920x1080i is too xpensive but from what ive read on other forums ppl cant tell the diff between 1366x768 and 1280x720

...sorry if i wasnt very clear just i couldnt find a tv help section on this site so didnt know if anyone would no anything. thats interesting i assumed the tv would be transmitting in standard def not lower than s.d. the tv is 6 months old btw so don't know what he could offer. i will say a full refund but am happy to swap it for another tv he could find and ill go down to 40 inch if needed.

we are going to the shop as i have said but only problem is word vs word, even if i did go to a consumer watchdog. however he prob knows he lied twice to us. and we have got a good r'ship with him. im prob going with my aunt as she a tougher negotiator than me and my parents r useless. also we recommended her to get a tv from his shop which she did and he then gave us a toy gift as a thank you.

i think its best we get standard sky for now and then upgrade to sky+ or sky hd once we know the situation. my m8 said installation isnt hard once you have the dish so i dont know if i could save the 60 quid for the upgrade.

BexTech

The image isn't quite as good with a 1366 x 768 screen as the screen has to rescale the image. By all means get one as they are being sold off to make way for proper HD screens, it was just they were built as PC screens, but they had loads left so started selling the panels off for TV.

girish_2

ok me my mum and dad have just got back from a 'meeting' with the shop guy and it's been so long since i've seen him he looks different!

He actually suprised me. I almost half thought he'd say he had lied to sell me the tv and that i had no proof so he had nothing else to say on the matter...

but he was explaining about the compatible vs ready thing and how the hdmi/dvi output thing i have in my tv and that a customer had the same situation once with him before and that when they plugged that cable in with their sky hd box it was hd quality.

he also gave us a guarantee that once we get the sky hd box and watch it, if the quality is not hd quality, as we see in shops showing sky hd on their tv's, then he would do something about the tv but from his point of view there will be no problems and that it would be hd quality.

when i said i went to these retail shops and they talked about the resolution needed and how even with the lead in the hdmi thing, it wouldn't be as good as hd quality, he explained how the retailer done that as they wanted business from me and that there is so much info on hd ready, much spun out by manufacturers etc. and that he sells hd ready and non hd ready ones and tells customers ones that aren't as they don't have the dvi thingy.

so it looks like we will get sky hd and assess it. we have his assurances if it doesn't work and we have seen enough hd ready's showing sky hd in shops to know wht hd quality looks and sounds like.

BexTech

LOL please don't say you were fooled by what you were told??

It will be a waste of money you getting Sky HD until you have a TV capable of displaying in HD, if you are still referring to the 480 line LG TV, then you just ain't going to get HD Quality pictures on a screen that has lower than UK SD quality. The same way you can't watch colour pictures on a monochrome TV, it just ain't going to happen.

Sorry to be blunt, bet without a TV with at least 720 lines you ain't getting or going to get the benefit of HD.

Take an old colour mobile phone for example it may have a resolution of 124 x 78 you may want to transfer a picture to the mobile phone that is 'HD resolution' lets say 1920 x 1080, it doesn't matter how good the original image is, it just ain't going to remain so when you display it on the mobile phone at it's resolution of 124 x 78.

Same with your TV doesn't matter if the incoming resolution is 1280 x 720 or 1980 x 1080 your TV has to downscale that to 852 x 480, so you will see the same quality picture as you do now. Until you get a HD resolution TV you are just throwing money away if you have Sky HD, as you NEED a HD TV to get the benefit.

Also note: Places like Dixons/Currys/Comet 99% of the time have no idea about what they are selling, and will try and sell you anything whether it is fit for the job or not, they will sell whatever gives them the larger bonus.

It will probably work, but it is impossible to get HD quality on a non-HD screen, same as you can't put 100 litres of water into 1 litre jug, unless the person in the shop and those in Currys/Dixons sell you a Dehydrator.

girish_2

well he knows how i approached him on that and he did say give me a chance to show you it is hd quality as i hve had the same issue before where people have come to me. so ill give him the benefit of doubt that he will show me what it looks like with sky hd and we have his word if we are still not satisfied then we will come to an arrangement about the tv.

i am hearing your points about the resolution and told him but then he was countering that by talking about media spin and how manufacturers and the media work hand in hand and that he sells tv that arent hd ready as they dont have the hdmi/dvi output to have the hd output grr.2bh im tempted to phone lg and ask someone about tha tv in question.knowing my luck the shop guy would probably say lg would say anything to sell a tv and they're confused with all these terms compatible etc. so who could i go to that would tell me 'the truth' that he couldn't counter as he seems to say technology is confusing everyone and it's the media but that he sells tv and knows his stuff etc?

ok look i believe you guys as the resolution thing makes sense but he asked for a chance to prove himself and he knows if he !!!!!!s up he has no choice but to sort out the tv. i dont believe him, my mum does and my dad is kinda going with the flow. it's absurd but he has said ok you have this problem give me 1 chance to fix it as i dont want to sell something that isnt what it is etc. so we'll see how it goes.

if we get sky hd is one thing, when i have no clue esp as i want a 360 too and he said he could supply a multi thingy hdmi thing as my tv only has 1 output ideally want both sky and 360 at the same time but that just aint going to happen.

sky hd transmits 4x better picture and sound but my own issue would be how much a diff it would make on my tv if i used the hdmi thing i.e. it might look better but until you see it next to a hd ready tv showing sky hd, you will not see the difference

girish_2

hey guys i agree with you but if i was to go back to him, he'd probably say there are different ways of defining hd tv which there are. so what i need is like the official board that made the criteria for hd ready tv's and of i get an official one he can't say they are lying or that hdmi will work.

i know for a fact i am not prepared to spend £300 quid on sky hd and then find out that it isn't hd quality. with the greatest of respect to giving him a chance to sort out the issue if i can get info (below) and get manufacturers on my side then he wouldnt just have me on his case.

but when i mentioned the resolution he said about the hdmi thing.

so i have one question before i make my next move- is there an official body or company that created the hd ready criteria that i could speak to in order to get facts that he cannot spin. if i couls get hold of a press release stating the minimum res for hd ready tv's and about the hdmi receiving the signel but not the picture in reality due to the native res, then the minute he says they are lying or that hdmi can make it hd ready, i am sure i could say that lg said they were prepared to contact their legal dept for advice etc- after all he would be lying about the company's product

failing that i am going to speak to customer services at lg. but i know he said before that manufacturers work with the media and the media spin things around.

guys let me clarify i am 100% with you now. but what i am saying is whatever i say he will say something else. it seems that he has told us that the hd compat tv we have is hd ready as it has the hdmi/dvi output and he said other tv's he sold were not hd ready as they didnt have this- and he has told customers this.

i need an official thing to contest him with.

BexTech

It's plain and simple HD is high definition, to view HD you need a screen that has HD resolution, in the same way you need a colour TV to receive colour pictures.

You TV has 480 lines that is below UK SD of 576 lines, there is just NO way you can see a HD picture, as you don't have a HD screen.

As I said if you were to have a monochrome (B/W) TV would you seriously expect to see a colour picture on it as most programmes are broadcast in colour, if you had 100 litres of water do you really think you could fill all of it in a 1 litre jug?

Yes speak to LG, of course your retailer is going to say they will spin you a line, because he knows he has sold a below SD TV as a HD TV.

I don't know how many times you need telling, but your TV is NOT HD, yes it will display the picture, but it is NOT capable of displaying it in HD as it has too low a resolution.

Yes, Sky transmits many x a better picture, but without a display that is able to display that, you are only going to get what you are getting now, 480 lines - lower than UK SD resolution, you can't magic extra resolution on your screen, the only way you will see HD pictures is with a HDTV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV#Comparison_to_SDTV HDTV resolution on the left, your SDTV on the right, no matter how good a picture you feed it, with it's resolution the SD picture is all it can display.

girish_2

"NTSC is 720 x 480 non-square pixels
PAL is 720 x 576 non-square pixels"

our tv res is 852 x 480 so what is NTSC and PAL

...on another forum someone sent me
http://www.eicta.org/files/PressRelease1-114214A.pdf

http://www.eicta.org/press.asp?level...05&do cid=398

apparantly... (reply to my forum post)...



4. Requirements for the label “HD ready”
A display device has to cover the following requirements to be awarded the label “HD ready”:

1. Display, display engine
· The minimum native resolution of the display (e.g. LCD, PDP) or display
engine (e.g. DLP) is 720 physical lines in wide aspect ratio.

2. Video Interfaces
· The display device accepts HD input via:
o Analogue YPbPr1, and
o DVI or HDMI

· HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats:
o 1280x720 @ 50 and 60Hz progressive (“720p”), and
o 1920x1080 @ 50 and 60Hz interlaced (“1080i”)

· The DVI or HDMI input supports content protection (HDCP)

Your TV qualifies on Point 2. That is, it has an HDMI input, and is capable of accepting the specified HD video formats.

However, it fails on 1. Your display engine is not capable of 720 physical line -only 480.


Turns out that the European Information & Communications Technology Industry Association created the official HD Ready specs etc. Well I think I can safely say they are hold the official licensing of what is termed to me hd ready technology? I say this as a friend of mine said to me that LG invented HD technology as they had the 1st lot of hd ready's out.

Now I am sure he will not say the official trade bosy is lying. I can tell him that I phoned LG who told me to speak to EICTA. So I phoned Brussels and EICTA sent me their official press release and that anything he says that is against that is simply not true and is Libellous. mmm bit worried to say Libellous though but you get my point.

I will speak to LG about the tv first and get them to confirm if it is showing less than standard definition resolution (anyone have an official document stating what SD resolution is btw?) and give their opinion on the issue.

Then we will go back to him and say with the greatest of respect to him, I trust the official makers of the technology. EICTA doesn't sell the technology, it invented it etc. He is right about the HDMI thing but that is one of the factors in the press release as linked above. it has to match all factors to be HD Ready.

Interesting findings...

Again I have to say I agree with you guys I just needed something that he could not contest. He can contest sellers of tv until the cows come home but he can't say the inventor is wrong when it's the inventors product! If he still tries to sorm his way out I will deffo call EICTA. I am sure they would be interested in my case

girish_2

ok so i went to see my relative who is a soliciter/lawyer gave me some solid advice. so this is exactly what i'm going to. i feel i have to respond as everytime i say something someone else replies!

She said I have a case under the sales of goods act. She said it doesn't matter if I have no written proof from him about what he said he is not likely to have kept a log of the conversations i have had with him- whereas i have this forum as permissible evidence.

She told me to wait for LG's response and if , as expected, they comfirm it isn't hd ready, then approach the next time you see him as the last/final meeting- as there has to be a cut-off point between you and him before trading sandards can take your case on for you. Take the evidence you have at hand and don't get angry or upset if he still claims he is right or says he will deny everything. i have the advantage and will notice from his body language early on whether he is prepared to negotiate or not,

She told me to call him and arrange a meeting, as formally as poss eg in his office or at a time when he is not busy. Don't just turn up at the shop. she advised me thaty one person should go to meet with him and thus only that person to talk. She said in any situation like this it should always be a man going as, 'im sorry but any man will try and sweet talk a girl around.' She also pointed out that in our situation he probably recognised the difference in opinion with me and my mum so played that to his advantage.

She told me to approach him with the new research i have found since our last meet. Go there and be firm but don't accuse him of lying or threaten him with court etc. Making empty threats could make you look like a child threatening its parent. everytime he explains this is why it is hd ready, you have contradictory information. just see how he tries to talk his way out of it. if he realises you have taken the trouble to get the facts then he might listen. he may be doing this to other customers and t.s might know about him-but that's for later. he could of course genuinly think he is right.

Explain to him what you have found and lay that against what he has told you. Explain that you are not saying that anyone is lying but it's clear that there is an inconsistency and discrepancy. Show him Lg's response and eicta and about the 3 factors needed for hd which mine meets 2.

What I have to decide is what the matter is over. She said that she has represented ppl who were prepared to go to court and fork out more in legal costs than the original cost of the purachase- because that's how much of a matter of principle it was for them, not of cost. That's an individual thing.

If he then says OK I DIDNT KNOW THAT then tell him there has to be some form of refund/compensation. You may have a figure in mind but do not tell him this. Tell him you will consider any offer he makes to you and then walk out calmly. He may offer you something less than ideal, but because you have used the tv you shouldnt expect a full refund. This is where you work out is what he is offering you better than nothing, or do you wish to take the matter further and try and get more out of him. This relates to how much you want to and are prepared to 'fight him' for it.

If he says NO I AM STILL RIGHT then ask him to put in writing why he claims it is hd ready. i do not expect him to agree to this but if he asks why just say it's for your future reference. get it on official letter-headed paper and get him to sign and date it.* I could say the info i have is written so it is easy to read accurately but everything he has told me i have to recollect and if it was written down it would be easier to distinguish between the two. after all if you're sure you're right then what's the harm in it. If he refuses to write it down then confirm again for your own mind why the tv is hd ready from him and then calmly walk out.

After you have left the shop, contact trading standards. do not mention anything during your meeting with him about t.s or court etc as you need to know your rights first.court is the very last resort and in my case trading standatds would be more useful help to me. sometimes threatening with court action does work but ur on the side of caution with that.

Tell t.s. the situation and explain the proof you have and the fact that from your part, you have done everything you can do try and reach a comprimise with him and explain to him why he is wrong and he is still not budging.

The difficulty then is that if it does get to small claims court, even if you do win the case, the hard part if getting the money out of him. He will probably tell you to call the bailiffs in and who knows how long the situation could go on for.

She also said that the small claims court only pays out upto a certain amount- £500 she could remember but was unsure if it had gone up to £1k. She explained that in it, there is just you and him, no lawyers and you both make the case and the judge makes a decision. it's very informal.

girish_2

got the reply from lg

---

Reply to Customer Enquiry

---

Thank you for your email ‘HD Ready’ is the term that describes a television that will receive a High Definition broadcast. ‘HD compatible’ will display an HD image although it will be downscaled due to the inferior resolution. HD Ready requires the following: 1. Minimum native resolution of 720, progressive scan and widescreen 2. HDMI, DVI or Component connection that is ACTIVATED for HD 3. HDMI or DVI with HDCP The reason your television is not HD Ready is that it does not have HDCP and it does not have the minimum resolution of 1280x720. The resolution of your set is 852x840. Yours Sincerely, LG Electronics UK Helpdesk 0870 607 5544 Monday - Friday from 9am – 8 pm Saturdays from 9am - 5pm Sunday and Bank Holidays from 10am – 4pm

*nb thats obviously a typo error on the resolution as its 852 x 480