HMRC - how long does it take them ?

kew63

Just wondered how many other BR's that had tax debts with HMRC had the same problems as us.
Hubbie had debts with Personal Tax & NI, VAT, and PAYE. They all went into the BR in July this year, and we know that the OR told them all back in August, but we are still getting letters from all the various departments requesting payment.
Sent off copies of the BR order and info of the OR but it's getting ridiculous, I know the HMRC has loads of offices & departments but how long does it take to filter the BR through.

Thanks :-)

rog2

I was a HMRC statistic myself, kew. In my case it was HMRC who petitioned for my bankruptcy, so if you were a 'Debtor Petitioned' bankrupt, things might take a bit longer.
It was the 'Inland Revenue' side of HMRC who petitioned for my bankruptcy and, to be fair, I had very little contact from them afterwards - other than a call to see if i still required Self Assessment forms to be sent to me.
The VAT side of HMRC, on the other hand, continued to 'chase' me for several weeks - even phoning my wife and telling her that I risked bankruptcy if I didn't contact them within 48 hours.
I did phone the number, and the woman at the end of the line started talking to me as if she had a bad smell under her nose, telling me that they 'needed to serve me with a Statutory Declaration'. When I, finally, managed to get a word in, I asked her just how many times HMRC wanted to or could petition for my Bankruptcy.
I explained, as best I could, that I had already recently been declared Bankrupt, in the High Court, by HMRC - gave her the date and number, and asked her why, as a member of HMRC, she was still harassing me, and my family. Her answer was a derisory "we are a COMPLETELY different department to the Inland Revenue and receive, or share, no information with them".
Makes you wonder what happened to the millions of pounds that was spent on 'merging' Inland Revenue and the VAT.
When she calmed down a bit, she did say that she would 'look into it' - very condescending of her. :rolleyes:
I did not hear from them again, but I would suggest that their internal communication procedure is no better than that which we so often see in other, usually financial, organisations.
So, kew, I don't think that there is any 'timetable' - you need to assume that internal communication has not improved since I dealt with them, and keep telling them that you are, in fact, bankrupt.
Once you have managed to break through their barrier of 'attitude' they will begin to leave you alone and move on to their next unassuming 'victim'.

You, and others reading this post, may think that I have little respect for the way that HMRC treats their 'debtors'. If you think that this is, indeed, the case, then you are absolutely correct.

kew63

Hi Rog2
Thanks for your reply. At least we know that it really is a case of repeatedly informing them.
He was a debtor petioned bankrupt, and still has to his final self assessment to cover the last period of the buisness, which he cant submit til April 2010. It will go into the BR, the OR has assured us of that, but no doubt that will start off another round of demands.
Definately dont blame you for your attitude towards the HMRC, with small businesses they bring the BR's on themselves. I cant understand for the life of me why they dont allow you to pay monthly towards next years VAT, PAYE, Tax etc.. then if the bill has a deficite it should be small enough to cope with. Getting a huge bill for the whole year and no time to pay must be crippling for many small businesses. And it's easy to say you should be putting some away every month to save for it but the reality is you pay who shouts hardest, and staff wages and suppliers tend to come first in hard times.
Also when you do have a problem and try to speak to them the rabbit warren of HMRC offices is baffling, you write to one office, another answers and asks you to write back to a whole new one !!!

Think I'll just make copies of his BR order, get all the fax numbers and do a blanket sweep of every tax office possible, can set it up to fax through our mail system at work, so can just repeat the faxing until they finally get the message !! hee-hee :-)

hopefulfooluk

Hi Kew,

I had a £7k VAT debt go into my BR - I went BR in April. Several letters down the line from them and me telling them I was BR over the phone (to which they replied that they weren't allowed to talk to me!), and I got a visit from a crown bailiff in September! I sent him away with my BR details though and he actually thanked me for my time and I've not heard anything from them since.

So be prepared for a visit if you start getting letters telling you that they are going to visit!

Cheers

Chris

foogirl1983

Having had many dealings with HMRC in my job as a tax accountant - how long is a piece of string?

rog2

foogirl1983 wrote: »

how long is a piece of string?

The official Receiver has a duty to, and will, inform ALL listed creditors of a bankruptcy declaration, including HMRC. This is usually done within six weeks of any Bankruptcy declaration (in my case, most of my 'creditors' were notified within four weeks).
HMRC are responsible for passing this information to any of their internal departments who may be affected by that bankruptcy. It is NOT the responsibility of the bankrupt.
HMRC should NOT be given, or allowed, any longer a 'piece of string' than any other creditor.

kew63

.... also HMRC presumably has a computer system, but their actions would have us believe every dept has their own completely separate database. Wouldnt surprise me if it's been done on a Excel spreadsheet !!!!!
When hubbie's father died last year he was actually on the VAT returns, and although I informed HMRC that he had died and they acknowledged the fact, it didnt filter through at all. They got quite nasty and was a nightmare to sort out.
It must be a total admin nightmare for them as well and they must have staff duplicating admin updates all the time.
So if they did get themselves sorted out and centralise their data they wouldnt have to charge us all so much tax !!! :-) or maybe not ....

rog2

kew63 wrote: »

.... also HMRC presumably has a computer system, but their actions would have us believe every dept has their own completely separate database.

When this topic came up once before (at least you and I know we are not unique) a poster who worked for HMRC said that it is possible for someone from the VAT section to look at a person's income tax details, if required, on the 'computer system'.
The fact remains that, if HMRC are pursuing your husband for any debt prior to his bankruptcy declaration they are, once informed of his bankruptcy, acting outside of the Law.
There is a Template letter, normally sent to dca's and their ilk, which your husband can send to anyone in HMRC who continues to pursue him for a debt which is no longer his responsibility.
I will look for it, and post a link.

rog2

rog2 wrote: »

There is a Template letter, normally sent to dca's and their ilk, which your husband can send to anyone in HMRC who continues to pursue him for a debt which is no longer his responsibility.
I will look for it, and post a link.

Didn't take long (thanks to tigerfeet and fermi :T). Send them the letter in the following link (it may need some editing to suit):

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.html?p=27136787

xxmarypoppinsxx

Hoping someone can give me an answer before HMRC do (I've been trying to get through for 2 days and between comp systems being down and people going home early I can't get a clear answer)

At the end of my OR interview this morning I asked what happens about my Tax Return for 08-09 as I haven't completed this yet, to be honest I'm dreading it as my accountant has always done it and when I lost my ikkle sole trader business and couldn't pay him any more he refused to complete my final return. The OR said to call HMRC and 'see what they want you to do', I know any tax I owe will be included in the bankruptcy so does that mean I don't need to fill in a tax return? (I hope so as I don't know where to start and haven't got any books or anything).

I spoke to a man at HMRC today and he said that although he isn't a bankruptcy law expert in his mind HMRC can't force me to fill in a tax return if I've gone bankrupt as it's obvious I haven't got the money to pay the tax and they can't legally hound me for it anyway... but 'in his mind' isn't enough for me really....

VERY CONFUSED!!!

Any help?

MP xxx

kew63

Thanks for the link Rog2 - will have the letters at the ready in case.

To marypoppins - love that name :-)

Hubbie had to complete his 08-09 return, and will also have to do 09-10 next April as it's just how his accounting periods were for the business.

The OR said to us that he doesnt have to do it but they would like it if he could because it draws a line under the whole matter. They understand that you're not going to pay an accountant to do it, but ours asked just to do it as accurately as we could.

Hubbies accountant used to give his a statement of his accounts plus a copy of the return he did, and we used that as a template to do the 08-09 online.

If you have anything like this then you might be able to use it to help you fill out yours.

So if you have a copy of your previous return, have it in front of you when you fill out your final one. Lots of the boxes are left blank anyway, and if you do it online, you can do it in stages, print it off and check it before submitting.

If it really is going to be a nightmare for you, I would write to the Tax office explain the circumstances and ask for them to state whether you legally have to do you final return. If you get a reply in writing and subseqent threats can take a hike !

Good luck - we're going to do the final one in the new year and I'm not looking forward to it at all, but do have the luck that one of the accountants at my work is great at tax returns and will check it over before we submit. As long as it's a correct representation of the figures that's all that matters, we wont be trying to claim expenses etc to reduce the tax bill because there is no point. Just keep it simple, then they cant really complain :-)