Trying to get my head around it

lostinrates

lemonjelly wrote: »

lostinrates I don't believe we disagree.

You are quite clear in your post about "our taxes". To me, quite clearly you see the beneficial reasons for a fair & just tax system, & the purposes for which that money is used.

Perhaps I wasn't clear?

My issue is with the people who spout on about "my taxes being spent on X". My dispute is that it isn't their money. It's ours. My reading of your post is we agree.

I apologise if I wasn't clear.

Differing in opinion is not an issue for me. There are many posters I agree with, & many I disagree with. I'm not going to fall out with or ignore any poster because we disagree. I welcome the debate, the discussion, the different opinions, the new perspectives, the things I hadn't considered, & the things I didn't know. Provided there are reasoned arguements, and manners, then there will not be a jelly falling out.

I try to not let my manners fail too often.

I edited a bit in, which might make your thanks unfair.

Thing is while they are OURs we have to listen to the many opinions of us. I think its a fair point peole raise, about things like th car (undecided on that myself, I wonder if the guy had a car before that was sold, or how much more taxis would cost the state?).

I think while taxation is so very heavy for people in ''normal jobs'' and normal lfestyles, the anger and frustration will reman, and perhaps not unjustly.

e.g. I look at DH' pre tax salary and smile, then you consider how much of that is paid in tax, and its hard to see why.

I have a friend who doesn't work, has two school age children in private schools on full scholarships from a charity, and who asked me for help sorting out their paperwork for debt advice. That their accumulated income should be higher than that of my husband's, in the higher tax band, is grating. They live in a home that would be above our mortgage abilty, on HB with a small top up. Its three bed, the children board. Now that I know their financial situation they feel able to be open about the frustration with trying to cope on the income and I admit I feel frustrated about this. although must make it clear not all income is from benefits, some is from charitable sources, and it apears this is over the amount that should be considered. I am told this is declared and passed as being for the benefit of the children I don't know the system to know true this is.

mumcoll

I know someone with a 'bad back' who hasn't worked for years, has a car paid for and uses it to drive to Spain to go snorkelling!! How someone with a bad back can sit for that long in a car yet can't do a desk job is beyond me.....

lemonjelly

Still not in disagreement with you lir. Not convinced by your friends circumstances, though am choosing not to comment as not aware of the specifics.

& I think the debate about taxation, & how it is spent is healthy & should be encouraged. Provided the debate is honest, fair and realistic.

Perhaps my dispute lies more with the terminology people are using.

I read on another thread something which relates here. The low-ness of wages of many occupations is being subsidised by tax credits. Perhaps part of the debate should focus on people being paid a living wage? There are benefits to paying such a wage.

Thing is, there will always be those who take the mickey, swing the lead, look out for number 1 & abuse the system. As a result of this, there will be genuine cases (I have seen & worked with many) who do not get what they are genuinely entitled to/should get, or are put off from applying for support because of the stigma. This makes me despair at times.

However, I feel we have a collective responsibility to review how public money is spent. That should include querying benefit payments where there is a genuine question of entitlement, or capital projects, or MP's expenses, or tax rates & credits. For example, I lose track of how many people report what they believe to be a case of benefit fraud. However, none of them report it. I am aware of families who collectively know of each others fraud. Also, see my earlier example on blue badges.

I think, for us all, we need to take a more responsible stance on how public money is spent, & why it is spent, as opposed to whinging about our own individual tax bill. By taking this ownership of public money, we'd all collectively learn a lot more about fiscal issues, limited resources, budgeting, & making difficult decisions.


ETA: see the above post made whilst I was typing to highlight my blooming point!

To the above poster - have you reported this fraud? or have you effectively colluded with it?

mumcoll

Yes I have reported it, why would I collude with it? It really annoys me, my own hubby has a bad back and hasn't had one day sick, if it's bad he takes annual leave. I hope the lazy skiver gets what he deserves! (Not my hubby obviously!)

zygurat789

pie81 wrote: »

Here's the problem with the car scenario.

A lady with disabilities gets given a car (and road tax, parking permit, petrol etc paid too). She can't drive, so gives it to her son. Her son uses it twice a week (let's say) to take her to medical appointments and the hairdresser.

Why shouldn't he use it the rest of the week for his own purposes?

Well, it may well be that two taxi trips a week would work out cheaper than the car (especially given that some taxi companies charge lower rates for disabled passengers and are subsidised by the govt to do so).

BUT the mother and son may exaggerate how much they "need" a car so as to get the car rather than just the odd taxi fare paid. If the son is not allowed to use the car for his own purposes, the incentive to exaggerate disappears.

exaggerate === lie

zygurat789

mumcoll wrote: »

Yes I have reported it, why would I collude with it? It really annoys me, my own hubby has a bad back and hasn't had one day sick, if it's bad he takes annual leave. I hope the lazy skiver gets what he deserves! (Not my hubby obviously!)

i hope your hubby gets what he deserves:rotfl:

inspector_monkfish

zygurat789 wrote: »

i hope your hubby gets what he deserves:rotfl:

a back massage ??

kabayiri

lemonjelly wrote: »

My issue is with the people who spout on about "my taxes being spent on X". My dispute is that it isn't their money. It's ours. My reading of your post is we agree.

The concept of "my tax money" is a philosophy. It's not a statement about level of spend.

It has been expressed other ways. In the states they talk about the tax dollar. 'Theo' on dragon's den talks about 'his children's inheritance'.

It is all about the same thing, which is understanding that this money has been provided by people through their own work effort, and respecting that fact.

LJ, when you keep a careful watch on expenses, or are concious of costs, you are espousing this philosophy! You are aware that it is "my tax money".

When you lose sight of this philosophy, you open up the door to excess.

zygurat789

lostinrates wrote: »

I have a friend who doesn't work, has two school age children in private schools on full scholarships from a charity, and who asked me for help sorting out their paperwork for debt advice. That their accumulated income should be higher than that of my husband's, in the higher tax band, is grating. They live in a home that would be above our mortgage abilty, on HB with a small top up. Its three bed, the children board. Now that I know their financial situation they feel able to be open about the frustration with trying to cope on the income and I admit I feel frustrated about this. although must make it clear not all income is from benefits, some is from charitable sources, and it apears this is over the amount that should be considered. I am told this is declared and passed as being for the benefit of the children I don't know the system to know true this is.

For my own personal information can anybody explain how you can receive HB when you pay tax at the higher rate?

lemonjelly

mumcoll wrote: »

Yes I have reported it, why would I collude with it? It really annoys me, my own hubby has a bad back and hasn't had one day sick, if it's bad he takes annual leave. I hope the lazy skiver gets what he deserves! (Not my hubby obviously!)

Kudos to you!

Tip for anyone reporting fraud. The more information you give, the better. Names, addresses, names of partners, places of work, times, approximate figures if money is concerned, descriptions, dates (eg when he is off on holiday to spain, who with, where he flies from) descriptions of cars/vans, including number plates.

The more info you give, the more likely they are to investigate, the more likely they'll successfully convict.