Loft Conversion - No Planning Permission

Johnnywelsh_2

Hey All,

I've been looking around now at quite a few houses and spotted a house I like however the slight hitch is the lack of planning permission for a 3rd bedroom as a loft conversion.

The owners state it was done by a reputetable builder but they had no planning permission. I've done a bit of research and read somewhere that a new regulation states that since October 2008 loft conversions no longer require PP providing the height of the roof or beam structures are not changed. Would this apply to past conversions too?

Could anyone provide any advice on checks I should be doing or regulations I should be checking it meets so this don't bite me in the bum when I try to resell the property in future?

I was also considering renting the property out in future. I'm worried the council would see the room as a big no no and not permit it to be rented out due to the lack of planning permission.

Any advice much appreciated,
Thanks,
John.

Doozergirl

Planning permission is not needed now and wasn't needed anyway in many cases.

It's building regulations that should have been adhered to. If it has been done by a reputable builder then it should meet building regs in force at the time of the conversion being carried out. Find out exactly what sort of work they did to convert the loft.

An indemnity policy is a possibility but I'm personally dubious of why a vendor themselves didn't and still cannot get sign off (it would be messy, mind trying to get it).

Ultimately if a full structural survey gives it the all clear then building regs may not matter so much but an indemnity policy can only be bought if building control have not been alerted to the situation. This means making the decision to do things properly or buy a policy. They can't buy one after they've found out they can't get sign-off for whatever reason.

There is no one that goes around ticking boxes on what is a recognised room and what is not. These people don't exist. It's about safety - is it safe to be used as a room? If so, it is a room. If it isn't safe, it shouldn't be a room.

Johnnywelsh_2

Thanks for the advice doozer. It's really helped.

RLH33

Re planning permission- in fact the changes to the permitted development rights in Oct 08 have actually been toughened in relation to loft conversions rather than relaxed and now heavily depends on where the house is located. Furthermore the changes to the regs are not retrospective, they only apply to works carried out AFTER Oct 08 and not before.

However what you first have to establish is whether permission was needed at all - when you say it is a 'loft conversion' what do you mean? Is there a dormer window? Or is it just the conversion of the loft as it is with the insertion of some velux windows?

If it was just velux windows put in with no dormer window then as long as the house is not in flats or above a shop, or listed, planning permission would not be needed.

If a dormer has been put in, as long as it is on the back/side of the house then it is unlikely to have needed permission although this is still not guaranteed.

As doozergirl has said you also need to look into whether building regs have been obtained as this would certainly have been needed.

I must say that I do smile when people say that it has no permission but was done by a 'reputable builder'. They can't be that reputable if they don't at least get building regs for the work carried out.

stanleyunwin

Johnnywelsh wrote: »

Hey All,

I've been looking around now at quite a few houses and spotted a house I like however the slight hitch is the lack of planning permission for a 3rd bedroom as a loft conversion.

The owners state it was done by a reputetable builder but they had no planning permission. I've done a bit of research and read somewhere that a new regulation states that since October 2008 loft conversions no longer require PP providing the height of the roof or beam structures are not changed. Would this apply to past conversions too?

Could anyone provide any advice on checks I should be doing or regulations I should be checking it meets so this don't bite me in the bum when I try to resell the property in future?

I was also considering renting the property out in future. I'm worried the council would see the room as a big no no and not permit it to be rented out due to the lack of planning permission.

Any advice much appreciated,
Thanks,
John.

Another thing to add is that you don't need the council's permission to let out your own home.

m_13

I think what the OP is worried about is if the loft conversion isn't a bedroom and so can't be used as one. For example, if fire regulations/escape and building regulations have not been followed and it's no more than an attractive loft space.

My parents are looking at a two bedroom bungalow with a loft space for storage with velux windows, carpeting, power points and radiators!

marcg

Architect here.

Retrospective planning can be applied for (for free) for "Permitted Developments" - check out your local council website>planning>permitted development for a description of what that is. Most loft conversions are PD. Those that usually aren't involve a new dormer on the front elevation (back is fine) or on a listed building or in a conservation area.

As doozer and m13 say, building regulations are the more important factor. If the works haven't been approved then some of the following may apply:

- The floor hasn't been reinforced and could collapse under heavy weight. Check: Have a look where the 1st floor ceiling is as compared to the floor level above. This should be around (10") 250mm overall. If its more like 150mm (6") then all you have are ceiling joists with boards on top.

- If the fire escape routes haven't been certified then potentially in a fire anyone in the top room could be suffocated by smoke/not be able to escape due to fire on the hall. This isn't normally a concern for 2 storey houses as the fire brigade assumes people will climb out of the window if the hall is on fire. Obviously you can't do that from the loft.

- If you don't have BRegs for the loft then your house insurance may not cover you for any damage caused by or to that part of the house. So if the whole thing burns down due to a fire started in the loft you may not be covered. If the fire starts elsewhere then you may not get the insurance to pay to repair the loft - only the floors beneath and a basic roof.

It is feasible (though unusual) to get retrospective building regs for a loft conversion. You will need an engineer willing to examine and certify the works that have been done. In practice this may mean making big holes. And an architect or technician to write a report about fire escape routes and possibly insulation. None of these people will be willing to accept any claims on their insurance as a result of the works though and will want you to sign something to say you accept they are only doing their best but that they aren't responsible.

Dogz111

Johnnywelsh wrote: »

Hey All,

I've been looking around now at quite a few houses and spotted a house I like however the slight hitch is the lack of planning permission for a 3rd bedroom as a loft conversion.

The owners state it was done by a reputetable builder but they had no planning permission. I've done a bit of research and read somewhere that a new regulation states that since October 2008 loft conversions no longer require PP providing the height of the roof or beam structures are not changed. Would this apply to past conversions too?

Could anyone provide any advice on checks I should be doing or regulations I should be checking it meets so this don't bite me in the bum when I try to resell the property in future?

I was also considering renting the property out in future. I'm worried the council would see the room as a big no no and not permit it to be rented out due to the lack of planning permission.

Any advice much appreciated,
Thanks,
John.

I'm in a similar postion to yourself. Seen a property I like but not sure any building regs are in place for the conversion. It's a straight forward conversion with no dormer for context. Appears to be a decent job but I'm not a builder so can't be 100% sure.

I'm going to offer a price which factors in the risk I am taking on and draw this to the sellers attention. I'm considering getting a full structural survey to qualify the work done and apply for retrospective building regs.

marcg

Call your local building control department to get their view on it.

David_Aldred

Hi - marcg is spot on and when I have been involved with these retrospective cases the Building Control Officer (BCO) went in first and then came up with a spec for the owner that should have been applicable at the time of conversion and to which it was then the owner who had to either show compliance with or bring up to spec. The BCO wanted drawings of what was there 'as seen' by opening up all areas to compare with this spec.

Given the amount of obstructions to open everything up (laminate floors over chipboard and you want to look underneath or trying to determine insulation and vapour barriers and whether fireline boards have been used etc) as marcg says it is a complete nightmare and those charged with stating what has actually been built usually put in BIG exclusions so they don't get chased on their insurance for something they had no control over in the first place.

As has been said - any truly reputable builder would have had the conversion signed off by the BCO as there is so much involved with compliance. Typically it is found that those that have not been signed off by the BCO have made big shortcuts to keep costs down often by way of fire, insulation, means of escape and strengthening required in addition to non compliant stairs. The daft thing is conversions that were done yonks ago the BCO is not interested in and many of those are complete deathtraps. One other thing the rules do vary for bungalows and houses. Kindest regards David Aldred independent damp and timber surveyor.

Dogz111

Just spoke to the BCO today to find out where I stand if I bought the property.

As David says everything needs opening up to check the works are compliant to todays standards. There also needs to be a 30 min fire proof escape route which means fire doors, frames, walls and wired smoke detectors for anything adjacent to the escape route, usually the stairs.

As David also states - a good builder would have gone through building regs which leads me to believe one which hasn't been approved will be riddled with problems. The best that could happen is you need to put fire doors on; the worst is that you have to rip everything out and start from scratch.

Seems a real nightmare to me - I'd ensure your offer reflects the potential downside and inconvenience should things not be up to scratch. I'm going to give the property I am interested in serious consideration and if I decide to go ahead put in a very very very low offer to reflect the potential downside.