retrospective build over agreement

pombears

Hi, can anyone help me out there as going through a very stressful time at the moment.
My house was due to be sold and exchanged but it had been brought to the attention of my buyers that there was an ' adopted sewer ' running through my back garden and as i'd built a conservatory last year i needed permission off welsh water or to get a ' retrospective build over agreement '. At the time of building the conservatory i'd already got planning permission from council and there was no need for building regs either. I've gone down the neccessary routes in trying to get this agreement by having drainage searches etc but received a letter 2 weeks ago from welsh water that i need to take my conservatory down. I've since gone to my local MP who got involved andsent a letter but today i've found out that it still has to come down. I'm totally distraught about this because the reason is ' in case we need to access the sewer'. i have no manholes and it only goes under the corner and there is another sewer that is 1.8m away.
I'd love to hear off anyone who can give me advice or anyone who has been given a 'retrospective build over agreement' so i can challenge back to welsh water why i can't have one.
PLEASE HELP!!!!

poppysarah

So there's no access point under the thing?
Have you got the plan of where the sewers are and is it accurate?

Do you have photos of the foundations for the conservatory?

marcg

Before you go all guns blazing it may be sensible to talk to Welsh Water direct. Being an architect I have designed many projects near or over a sewer (or more difficultly a water main) and they tend to have a blanket ban on anything going near their pipes.

Looking at your post I note a few points:

1. I am surprised a conservatory doesn't require building regs. I don't know for a fact it does, and if it did it would be pretty simple stuff but I am still surprised. The floor, for example, was it built on concrete, does it have a damp proof membrane and the correct sub-base? These are things covered by building regs. Still, if the buyer's solicitors aren't asking, then so much the better.

2. This adopted sewer - who is it serving? Are we talking about a sewer that runs the length of a street, picking up the foul water from each and every house or a branch serving only your and your neighbours house? Where are the manholes? I ask this since the realistic need for access is to maintain (ie clean) the sewer. If they needed to repair the sewer it would only be because your conservatory has crushed it. If they want to install a new sewer then they'll do it in the road, not your garden. You can find out most of this stuff by contacting Welsh Water street mapping. Either for free or a very small amount they will supply you with a map of your area showing the routes of the drainage.

3. Where exactly is this sewer? Utilities companies often have a ban on building within 3m (or was it 4m...?) of a sewer. So your extension might not actually be over it. If so, a structural engineer should be able to provide calculations to prove the added weight of the conservatory close to the sewer isn't going to cause it to collapse. Cost should be no more that £500.

4. You may be able to purchase insurance to cover the risk of Welsh Water needing to access the sewer. Given that they have already written to you asking to take down the conservatory this might be unaffordable but it depends on the details - if they are being very cautious and there isn't a real need then you may be able to get them to leave off and insure the risk of a future injunction. Your solicitor will know who to buy this insurance from.

Finally, try to keep this contained between you and the person at Welsh Water who wrote you the letter rather than your MP and WW Plc. The individual has a lot of discretion, the organisation has a lot of example-setting to consider.

pombears

First and foremost thankyou for your replies. We have paid for cctv and a full examintaion of both the foul sewer and fresh water sewer both showing they were in excellent condition and no detrimental effects noted to the sewer from the conservatory. Both Sewers have been tracked in our garden, the foul sewer is ranging from 1.8m to 2.4m from the conservatory and the surface water running diagonally under the one corner of the conservatory. Welsh water are sticking rigidly to the fact that we should not have built within 3metres of the sewer.
We have liased with our friend who is an architect also and he has done many builds that have breached this rule and welsh water have granted him a build over agreement. I can't understand how this can be granted for some and not for others. We have also been informed that due to the location of the sewers we could not build at the side of the property as we wouldn't be granted a build over ?

marcg

granted for some and not for others = at Welsh Water's discretion. If things haven't already gotten too public with your MP, I'd ask your architect friend if he'd be willing to look into the situation for you. If I were him I'd be talking mano a mano to WW and offering to provide engineer's calcs etc to prove things are ok. At the end of the day they are a public utility company and have really strong statutory powers to protect their pipes so you are really in their hands. A reasonableness test suggests you really shouldn't be having these issues but if you have rubbed someone the wrong way or someone at WW is inexperienced you may find yourself forced to take down that conservatory.

FilthyLuka

Were you aware of the pipe during the time of construction?

Can you prove that adequate measures were taken during the construction of the conservatory to protect their pipe?

pombears

Thanks, we were unaware of sewers in the garden as when we bought the property in 2003 it wasn't picked up in the paperwork as they didn't do a drainage search (something we are looking into). We do not have any manholes on our land at all they are located on the main road to the side of our property.
I really do feel we are being treated unfairly. In hindsight I wish we had got in touch with our architect friend first but at the time we thought the mp was our only option.

tek-monkey

Severn Trent told me that while they may issue buildover agreements, they never issue them retrospectively. Therefore if it wasn't requested at the correct time, you can't have one. No idea if this is true for all water authorities.

David_Aldred

Hi,
I have come across this before when doing drawings for extensions and can imagine what a sick stressed feeling you have. It is bad enough finding this out before you build but afterwards is very distressing indeed.

Conservatories are peculiar in that depending upon the size of the conservatory (volume), it's proximity to roads / paths and consideration for any other previous extensions some do not need Planning or Building Regulation Approval; especially if you maintain doors that lock from the house to the conservatory, as it is considered something of a demountable structure, even though it has a base with dwarf walls and foundations.This is a general comment and varies from one Local Authority to another (so never just throw a conservatory up without checking with your Local Authority if such permisssions are required).

However even if permissions are required it is not the job of the Planning or Building Control departments to investigate whether you have a legal right to build something other than them granting permission under their guidelines of permitted development. It is up to you and your legal advisors to determine if there are any other restrictions including mains services that restrict building over or within so many metres from them.

Given that there are such restrictions on where you could build on your property that were in place before you purchased the property it is reasonable to suggest that your legal advisor should have made appropriate enquires when you were considering purchasing the property to discover this fact and make you aware of it just as the prospective purchaser now has.

If Welsh Water dig in (no pun intended) then I am afraid it may well be that there is no defence to say you were not aware of such legal restrictions and if that is the case they may well insist as it appears they are doing that the conservatory will have to come down with the base / foundations removed.

From their point of view they do not want to just have the right to look down a manhole to check that this drain is free running without damage, they want the right to stick a note through your door and say on such and such a date we are going to rip your garden up and put a bigger drain in which would be a major headache with a conservatory sat over it so they want free access other than re-instating paths, lawns and flower beds.

Sorry it is little comfort but unless Welsh Water did a U turn and employed their legal department to waiver this restriction (which would also have to be included within your deeds via your solicitor) things do not look very hopeful and you could see why your MP may struggle to fight your corner as it would set a precedent for anyone to build what they wanted over communal services. It is also likely you will have a duty of care to declare the land is blighted to any prospective purchaser.

Kindest regards, David Aldred independent dampness and timber surveyor.