Complete bathroom overhaul.....

keystone

themanbearpig wrote: »

There is absolutely no way anyone can justify £2800 for similar work listed.

Just playing devils advocate here - why? Specifically please. Oh and BTW I think its too high too but interested in your justification.

I suggest you ask people for recommendations for individual tradesman, do a little research

Quite agree. Ask the tradesman about the last job he did and can you see it in the flesh.

and do all the organising yourself.

Receipe for disaster. Adds minimum days work to the tradesmans time which he should charge you for because he is kept waiting whilst you are organising when it goes wrong - and it will.

Ask on here for advice,.....

Agree entirely.

but don't give over nearly £3k of your money to a bathroom "specialist" for £1k of work.

Can you justify this? It isn't £3K IMHO but it isn't £1K either. Show me how you can do this job for £ 1K and I'l start sub-contracting to you with immediate effect.

Cheers

Found_true_love

justjohn wrote: »

Can you not DIY it???
labour charges are heavy on this sorta stuff...most off it is easy to do . just done a bathroom myself..had a cast iron bath on second floor. first time i ever smashed one up..best fun i have had in a while lol

It all depends on how good he is at DIY. Does he feel confident enough isolate that pipe that you cant see where it comes from before he cuts it? Does he know the difference between a combi boiler system, a traditional indirect fired gravity fed tank system and a condensing boiler (pressurised) for the heating but with an unvented indirect fired mains fed hot water storage tank???

And guess what there are a possible 5 - 10 choices of types of shower to choose from and if you choose the wrong type for the wrong system (some are non dependent, say an instantaneous water heater - to the laymen and electric shower) then you dont get what you intended.

I had a situation where a bloke supplied a pumped shower (the pump is in the shower itself) and it gets fed from a gravity hot and cold supply, therefore it has a 5amp supply. The blokes system was a mains fed combi boiler!!! (wont bore you with how thats wrong because if you dont know then you need the help of an expert!)

The bloke had got advice from the supplier and ended up with that shower, he told them that he wanted a power shower, I need say no more.

So my professional advice, get at least three WRITTEN estimates, get references, ask if the man estimating the work and you are speaking too and trusting, is actually going to be doing the work himself or if he sub contracts or employs his fitters.

If its the latter then, depending on the fitter you get, the work may be better or worse.

And then finally, ask him if his electrician (if you are touching the electrics) is part p registered, if he isnt or cant produce his certificate DONT USE HIM/THEM. These days thats like asking a non registered (gas safe/corgi) fitter to work on your boiler/gas system, its a big no no.

Good luck, maybe as a compromise, get the fitter to isolate (he will charge) but strip out the bathroom yourself, offer to be the rubble removal man, offer to clean up every night so the fitter doesnt have to, just some money saving advice. :cool::money:

trf1960

Found_true_love wrote: »

]

And then finally, ask him if his electrician (if you are touching the electrics) is part p registered, if he isnt or cant produce his certificate DONT USE HIM/THEM. These days thats like asking a non registered (gas safe/corgi) fitter to work on your boiler/gas system, its a big no no./QUOTE]

Unfortunately it doesn't stop people using them though does it !!

Found_true_love

trf1960 wrote: »

Unfortunately it doesn't stop people using them though does it !!

No, but if a consumer knows about Part P then he/she knows to ask the question then its up to them as to what route they want to take, but and I dont know if people know this.......

These days if it is found out when buying a house that electrical work has been carried out, then, unless they get a minor works certificate for that work or have a periodic test carried out (to verify the installation) then it is very likely going to be a sticking point for the sale of the house, and a new bathroom installed in 200x is almost a dead givaway.......

Oh and another thing, if a competent installer does the installation but is not part P registered (and registration is all about being able to self certificate) then he/she can still go to building control (I think) and get them to certificate for him or he can then go to a part P registered person to get a periodic test carried out and certified (all this costs)

So just get a Part P registered electician in the first place saves all the messing about.

keystone

100% support the paras I've not responded to individually.

Found_true_love wrote: »

So my professional advice, get at least three WRITTEN estimates, get references, ask if the man estimating the work and you are speaking too and trusting, is actually going to be doing the work himself or if he sub contracts or employs his fitters.

Better to get three written QUOTES with a clear statement of work including a clear statement of what he will provide and what you provide and to include any included contingencies for unknowns. Any major probs that develop outwith the scope should be immediately discussed with the owner when they arise, proposals (perhaps including alternatives) made for dealing with them and discrete QUOTES for same. Then there is no argument and everyone knows where they stand. I stopped doing estimates in favour of quotes about 18 months ago. Some I've lost on some I've won a bit on but it makes for a better client/contractor relationship.

And then finally, ask him if his electrician (if you are touching the electrics) is part p registered, if he isnt or cant produce his certificate DONT USE HIM/THEM. These days thats like asking a non registered (gas safe/corgi) fitter to work on your boiler/gas system, its a big no no.

I use an NICIEC Electrician EXCEPT where there is a direct like for like replacement involved - like change the fan. Where it is a direct replacement for an existing piece of kit there is no Part P or notification requirement nor any need for an MWC. I also farm out plastering where whole walls/ceilings are involved because its a skill I've never been able to master - I use a good un not the cheapest one.

Good luck, maybe as a compromise, get the fitter to isolate (he will charge) but strip out the bathroom yourself

Thats all very well except when the plumbing is cut in the wrong place leading to extra work/materials and a complete pigs breakfast is made of stripping tiles off the wall leading to additional work to correct the damage. Fitter not happy and neither will householder be with the extra costs and time to sort it! Householder with club hammer and bolster and an armful of ignorance takes a day + to remove tiles and potentially leaves holes everywhere or I take 'em off in an 1 or 2 hours with my SDS on chisel - which is more cost effective?

offer to be the rubble removal man

Thats not a bad plan. Nowadays we have to have a Waste Carriers Licence to remove it from premises plus it costs £100 plus to dispose of at the commercial tip. Its actually easier and cheaper for client to hire a skip (or wreck the shocks and springs on the Volvo )

offer to clean up every night so the fitter doesnt have to

Any good tradesman should clean up after himself everyday (that doesn't mean chucking it under the floorboards either) and that should be included in his rate NOT added on. But why oh why are spreads ALWAYS so messy and why oh why do the sparks have to leave those annoying little bits of copper wire right in the place where you will inevitable find it with your knee later?

Cheers

keystone

Found_true_love wrote: »

These days if it is found out when buying a house that electrical work has been carried out, then, unless they get a minor works certificate for that work or have a periodic test carried out (to verify the installation) then it is very likely going to be a sticking point for the sale of the house, and a new bathroom installed in 200x is almost a dead givaway.......

Except that this is not necessary for a like for like replacement either under Part P or Edn 17. Replace a fan with a fan is OK - and it doesn't need an external isolator if there isn't one existing. Put an isolator in and you need to notify it under Part P and issue an MWC. Replace an electric shower with an exact same rated shower is OK. replace an electric shower with a higher power one is NOT OK.

Oh and another thing, if a competent installer does the installation but is not Part P registered (and registration is all about being able to self certificate) then he/she can still go to building control (I think) and get them to certificate for him or he can then go to a part P registered person to get a periodic test carried out and certified (all this costs)

Not quite. Building control WILL issue a Building Certificate for the work IF the work has been discussed with them beforehand and they have approved what is to be done and inspected at both 1st and 2nd fix. This will cost about £ 250.00. They will NOT test nor issue Edn 17 Certificates. You are correct that a full PIR would be needed for the whole house. That will ONLY test the electrics. It will not get you Part P notificaton. A spark will NOT test AND notify someone elses work.

So just get a Part P registered electician in the first place saves all the messing about.

Absolutely and its a lot cheaper too. I have two tame ones I work with - depending on who is available at the time they are needed.

Cheers

Found_true_love

keystone wrote: »

100% support the paras I've not responded to individually.

Better to get three written QUOTES with a clear statement of work including a clear statement of what he will provide and what you provide and to include any included contingencies for unknowns. Any major probs that develop outwith the scope should be immediately discussed with the owner when they arise, proposals (perhaps including alternatives) made for dealing with them and discrete QUOTES for same. Then there is no argument and everyone knows where they stand. I stopped doing estimates in favour of quotes about 18 months ago. Some I've lost on some I've won a bit on but it makes for a better client/contractor relationship.


Cheers

Im in two minds about that one the difference between a quote and an estimate (as you know but I put it here for discussion for other peoples benefit) legally is that a quote binds the contractor to the price to the schedule of works. The other doesn't.

What I actually do it produce an estimated price against a schedule of listed works as a unit rate, say 1msq undercoat plaster £15, if they end up with more needed then the units just get adjusted, everyone knows where they stand.

So that takes care of the question what happens if, when I take off the tiles, all the plaster comes off! Inbuilt variation based on a schedule of rates.


Yes I agree anything outside the scope of works should be brought to the attention of the customer straight away, costs discussed, time allowed, expectations revised

How do you multi quote your post key? please let me know ta

Thank you for your help in clarifying to the MSE members on those extra fiddly details about Part P/ NICIEC its always a lot to go through when posting to get it all right.

As for the other comments about stripping out, well I am trying to give a balanced Money Saving Expert type of advice to the consumer. Yes the customer may go at it like a bull in the china shop but if you give him your expectations (written down) then all should be fair. If he leaves a plaster board holey mess (lol) then he can expect some making good costs. But if he does it good then he has saved money and this forum works well again.

Oh and as for the sparks and his little cuttings, I have an running joke with my sparks I am always telling him that when the floor is full please do feel free to use the rubbish tub provided!! Jeese its not like he even needs to open the rubble sack!

And finally your knees get some pads, however my other sparks laughs every time I use visor/mask/ear plugs, I tell him why doesn't he connect the earth to the live, he says dont be stupid, the other day he spent the day in casualty with a spliter in his eye - they also told him he was going deaf but he didnt hear that lol (btw its all in the crack) I only get electrocuted when I drill through electric cables that run diagonally from one socket to the next, luckily I am still alive thanks to my RCD cable reel!

Cheers Keystone love to have banter with a fellow pro

poorlywallet

Hi Keystone,
Nice post! good info. :T

Can i just chuck a couple of little bits in:-

It seems that LABC charges vary widely across the country, i've heard from roughly £50-£350 (where i live, it happens to be £142 min, sliding scale e.g. £236 for a job worth £3000), might i suggest that everybody check their local council website.

As a self-certifiying spark myself, it niggles me a bit when people refer to only 1 of the various organisations that register sparks for Part P. (I have so far resisted the calling from the dark side )

Anyone who needs a sparky should try this website:-

www competentperson co uk

(apparently, as a new poster, i can't post links directly, sorry, you'll have to do your own full stops )

There is a simple search by postcode to find a sparky near you.

Also, you are correct about replacing electrical accessories (fans, lights etc) not requiring notification or MWC, but word of caution to anybody doing this kind of work:-

If the fixed cable supplying the accessory does not have an earth core
(often the case of light circuits installed prior to 1966)
you can only fit 'class2' or 'double insulated' accessories, be careful.

suisidevw

Thanks for your help all.

A second quote has come in and higher than the above by a few hundred quid. Just waiting on last one now.

BTW, The bathroom fitter is on MSE!

helenwils

keystone wrote: »

Funny man - ha ha.

Youir scope of work is NOT the same as the OP and you have no idea that it will take 4-5 days max. How CAN you say that when you haven't seen the job and its not the same as yours!

BTW it might be an idea to cost YOUR time for the work you did and add it to your total. Then you'll find out what it really cost you - and don't say our time was free either it wasn't in reality.

Cheers

I totally agree with you, there are some clever people out there. My hubby installs bathrooms disabled shower rooms etc and does almost all the work himself (which saves alot of hassle when trying to get each tradesperson to come when you need them and not when they can make it)he knows that the work runs smoothly and is finished to the high standard he expects and his customers expect (standards vary from person to person) also prices vary depending on the each individual job and the work involved. most of his work comes from word of mouth from satisfied customers. good luck.