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Unenforceability & Template Letters II

edited 27 February 2010 at 3:16AM in Debt-Free Wannabe
2.5K replies 204.5K views
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  • edited 22 January 2010 at 6:21PM
    St0lliSt0lli Forumite
    594 posts
    edited 22 January 2010 at 6:21PM
    Hi NID, wonder if you can help me again please? A bit of background in that Lloyds TSB are one of my creditors and I requested a CCA back in November but due to personal circumstances (which I won’t go into here) I didn’t feel I could fight the CCA and letter which I received but having been inspired by your post I’m wondering if I can!

    Here’s what they have sent me in the CCA

    B Repayments
    This looks ok to me but what do I know lol
    It does say 2% of the balance shown in your statement (min 5% or full balance if less than £5)
    Payment will be about 25 days after the statement date but we may change it etc etc etc

    C Rate of Interest
    The APR is shown in your original agreement. They’ve attached what they purport to be the original agreement and that says 1.24% a month for purchases and 2.075% for cash advances etc.
    D Credit Limit
    We will set a credit limit and tell you what it is after we have opened your account. We may change it in the future

    HOWEVER… This can’t be my original agreement as it has my current address on it but I’m absolutely certain that I was at my previous address when this card was opened and also the agreement isn’t signed by me

    They actually say in the letter which covers the agreement:
    ‘We are endeavouring to locate the copy of your signed agreement but please be assured we would not have opened a credit card account without having sight of a signed agreement. Having satisfied our obligation under section 78, the agreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondence with you regarding the provision of copy agreements.’

    So is this enforceable? Unfortunately I’m up against a bit of a tight deadline because as I said I requested this CCA back in November and because of what they wrote I just assumed they were right and filed it away! However I’ve now received a default notice which they’ve given me until 27th January 2010 so I need to act quickly if I want them to stop.

    What do you think NID? Are Lloyds TSB worth the battle? I’ve read some horror stories about them on here. I’m happy to get a letter sent to the special delivery to ensure they get it by Tuesday 26th which should meet their deadline.
    Thanks in advance! (apologies for the long post but I'm fretting away here...:()
    Light Bulb Moment 4th January 2009 :eek:
    Started DMP 1st April 2009 :A
    DMP mutual support thread member: 267 :j
  • Hi, wondering if someone could help. Sent off the first CCA letter to 4 credit card companies. Mint sent this reply with a copy of an application form signed & dated by me 27/9/99, a copy of terms & conditions I presume was issued at the same time, a letter regarding a replacement card with a copy of a credit card agreement attached to it (no idea what thats about) and a copy of a statement for 12/2009. Not sure what to do next.
    15 January 2010
    Thank you for your letter dated 04 January 2010, which was received into this Office on 08 January 2010.
    Your written request for information made under s78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act must be accompanied by payment of a fee of £1, which we have received and has been applied to your account accordingly. We are obliged to provide you with a 'true' copy of the credit agreement and a statement of financial information relating to the account, namely, the state of the account, amount currently due, with amounts and due dates of future payments that still require to be made. in terms of CCA copy document regulations, the 'true' copy requirement can be satisfied by providing a copy agreement at the date the card agreement was made and providing that plus a copy of the current terms of the card agreement.
    I have enclosed the s78 (1) information.
    With regard to your request for a statement of account', I have enclosed the most recent available statement for the above account. Should 'you require duplicate statements of your account prior to this date, please contact me accordingly and I will advise you of the cost for these.
    Our records show that there is still a balance outstanding on the above account. As you are aware, your account is currently being managed by our Collections Department. Therefore, you should contact them directly to obtain details of your required repayments to settle your account. They can be contacted on 0870 909 3709.
    I can confirm that your account has not been sold.
    l trust the above clarifies matters for you.

    Correspondence Officer
  • This is the one I received from Barclaycard with a copy of Terms & conditions with no signature on it. The balance on this account is £1558.12 & not £8,186.23. Don't know where they got that figure.
    January 2010
    BARCLAYCARD SERVICES
    Reference: SECTION 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974
    I write further to your letter requesting a copy of you executed agreement for the above account.

    The information we must provide to you under the terms of Section 78 is prescribed by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and by' the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. Under Section 78, we must supply you with a copy of your executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer.

    . The current credit limit on your account is £1,8OO.OO
    . The current balance on your account today is £8,186.23
    . The next minimum payment of £|112.05 is due on 10/2/2010

    Please note, a copy of your current Barclaycard Credit Agreement will be sent under separate cover.

    You will be receiving your next statement shortly which will provide you with full details of your account.

    With reference to the Civil Procedure Rules (the “CPR”). We have
    provided you with sufficient information to allow you to understand our position. The CPR does not confer an automatic entitlement to documents before proceedings start. CPR 31.16 provides that a party may apply to the court for pre-action disclosure in certain limited circumstances, which do not apply here. The application must be supported by evidence - and the usual order is for the applicant to pay the costs of the application, including the respondent's costs, together with the respondent's costs of complying with any order that is made as a result (CPR 48.1(2)).
    While there is no formal obligation on our part to provide documentation in answer to Validation of Debt correspondence, we have undertaken steps to provide you with the contractual terms under which your financial obligations arise and a statement of account.
    I am fully satisfied that the sum outstanding by you remains legally due and payable. You should continue to repay the outstanding balance owed on your account in accordance with the terms of your credit agreement. If you do not, we may register default against you with credit reference agencies, although we will formally notify you before doing so.
    This completes our obligation to you Consumer Credit Act 1974.
    sincerely
    Barclaycard Customer Services

  • pinkjaney wrote: »
    Hi

    I requested a copy of all personal data and sent the £10 to moorcroft, they asked for proof of identity which i sent to them. They returned it a few weeks later.

    As they never sent what i requested i then sent them a letter stating that as the had not responded they could not issue any more letters chasing the debt etc etc now I have had a letter from them stating that i have failed to send the relevant information and have returned the £10.00.

    Also if i want the info to rerequest it and send them another £10.00.

    So what action must i take now please as i have no idea what to do.

    well guess what i have had today.....A letter from moorcroft with a discounted offer to clear this debt before possible legal action now what do i do.......
  • Morning NID

    Had a very comprehansive letter from Mint this morning with a nice copy of my application form from 2001 which bears my sig, date, income, etc etc etc all in my handwritting so obv not a fraudulent copy and paste job.

    Also with this is a copy of the T&C at the time and the current T&C. Copy of last statement. Copy of letter informing me of a replacement card (not dated). Also a copy of (ouragreement) which reads -

    The following details about the card form part of the credit agreement between us and you.

    1, We will set your credit limit and advance limit and we may change them at any time. The advance limit is 50% of the credit limit. We will give you written notice of any change to either limit.

    2, Within 25 days after the date of each statement you must pay us at least the minimum payment shown on your statement . The min payment will be 3% of the new balance shown on your statement, or £ 5 which ever is more. However, if the new balance is less than £5 you must pay the balance in full.

    3, The rate of interst we charge and the equivalent APR's are shown below.

    For purchases ( inc transfer & save)
    Until feb 2002 0.087% (fixed) - 1.0% APR
    From Feb 2002 1.313% (variable) 16.9% Apr
    For advances from the start 1.313% (variable) 19.3% APR

    For each advance we will charge you 2% of the value of the advance or £1.50, whichever is more. We may change the rate of interest and charges but the APR's shown above do not take account of any future changes to the interst rates and charges.

    4, If you repay the full new balance shown on your statement within 25 days of the statement date, we will not charge you interest on any purchase shown on that statement.

    5 The is a minimum interst charge of 50p. So if the interest we work out is less than 50p, 50p will appear on your statement as the amount you must pay.

    All looks pretty enforceable to me what do you think ? Or am i missing something.

    :beer:
    A Bank is a place where they lend you an umberella in fair weather and asks for it back when it begins to rain - I hate them all
  • edited 23 January 2010 at 1:54PM
    never-in-doubtnever-in-doubt
    20.6K posts
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited 23 January 2010 at 1:54PM
    My CCA Doesn't Show My Credit Limit

    There has been a lot of confusion (and some cocky, idiots trying to cause arguments) as to whether your s.78 CCA should contain the actual credit limit or whether they can omit it.

    Technically, the Prescribed Terms stipulate the main Terms for a Running Account (i.e. a credit card or store card) are:
    • Repayments
    • Rate of Interest
    • Credit Limit
    How this is interpreted is as follows:
    • Repayments
      A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following; Number of repayments, Amount of repayments; Frequency and timing of repayments; Dates of repayments; The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.
    • Rate of Interest
      A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement
    • Credit Limit
      This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.
    So, as we can tell from the above it clearly states how you should repay the debt under your agreement; the rate of interest that is applicable to you and that the Credit Limit can be 'a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.' Sticking with this point; according to the OFT the lender can omit a credit limit (in monetary terms, ie. £1000), even though it is explicitly one of the main terms! Confusing? Just a little bit!
    8.5 What is meant by ‘credit limit’?
    Sch 6 para 3 applies to running-account credit agreements. In such cases the agreement must include a term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined, or that there is no credit limit - this is also required by Sch 1 para 8. The credit limit may, by virtue of Sch 1 para 8, be expressed as a sum of money, or a statement that the credit limit will be determined by the creditor from time to time and notified to the debtor, or a sum of money together with a statement that the creditor may vary the credit limit from time to time and notify the debtor. {Quoted from OFT}
    Therefore, there is no argument if you're trying to claim that lack of a credit limit (in monetary terms, ie. £1000) ensues unenforceability, unfortunately it does not. Rightly or wrongly, it is perfectly acceptable for a lender to send you notification of your credit limit from time to time on additional documents (i.e. letters). This, in Layman, basically mean that it is ok for a credit limit to be expressed in writing from time to time, by the lender.

    Hope the above helps to clarify things for you all. :D
    :o 2010 - year of the troll :o

    Niddy - Over & Out :wave:
  • Anyone know if Egg Loan agreements are valid?
    We received a copy of agreement with what looks like a print out of the online application that was filled in with tick boxes for the signature. It's dated September 2005 and from a quick search it looks like tick boxes were allowed from 1/1/2005 so I think this one may well be enforceable.
  • I requested my original Consumer Credit Agreement and this is a copy they have sent to me and I am trying to work out the prescribed terms.

    Sadly I cant post links but please look at w's !!!!!!! dot com forward slash ydpw7np


    B Repayments
    A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following -
    (a) Number of repayments;
    (b) Amount of repayments;
    (c) Frequency and timing of repayments;
    (d) Dates of repayments;
    (e) The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable.
    C Rate of interest
    A term stating the rate of interest to be applied to the credit issued under the agreement

    D Credit limit
    This may be a term or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit.



    Looks like I will have to make some kind of an offer but wanted to check before I do so.

    Many Thanks
  • edited 23 January 2010 at 3:48PM
    never-in-doubtnever-in-doubt
    20.6K posts
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited 23 January 2010 at 3:48PM
    Anyone know if Egg Loan agreements are valid?
    We received a copy of agreement with what looks like a print out of the online application that was filled in with tick boxes for the signature. It's dated September 2005 and from a quick search it looks like tick boxes were allowed from 1/1/2005 so I think this one may well be enforceable.
    Egg Agreements - Flawed?

    Can I just point out, to your good self and anyone else reading this thread that Egg are the only company to have flawed agreements. You need to go back and check your CCA and where it should say 'Credit Limit' it may well say 'Approved Limit' in which case it is unenforceable for using wrong language on a regulated document, basically if your Egg agreement uses the term 'Approved' as opposed to 'Credit' then the agreement is unenforceable as the prescribed term 'Credit Limit', is missing :D

    This only applies to Egg paper agreements.

    NiD watches the mass influx of people with Egg accounts rushing to re-check their agreement :rotfl:
    Example of Unenforceable Egg Agreement
    eggunenforceable.jpg
    :o 2010 - year of the troll :o

    Niddy - Over & Out :wave:
  • never-in-doubtnever-in-doubt
    20.6K posts
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I requested my original Consumer Credit Agreement and this is a copy they have sent to me and I am trying to work out the prescribed terms.Looks like I will have to make some kind of an offer but wanted to check before I do so.

    Many Thanks

    Your post makes no sense - to post a link add some spaces at the front like this: w w w.google.co.uk

    then we can see it. But you have quoted the prescribed terms, are you saying your agreement conformed to those or that the lender sent you those?

    Please clarify and stick to one font :p
    :o 2010 - year of the troll :o

    Niddy - Over & Out :wave:
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